Ketchikan: Ad Hoc Committee for Development of Tourism Advisory Board

We are recording. Okay, October 5th meeting of the Ad Hoc Committee for the Development of Tourism Advisory Board. Call the meeting to order. And could you do the roll call, please?

Let's see, we've got Sheldon. Yes, here. Hi. Yep. Marcus.

Here. Tom. Here. Michelle, uh, has an excused absence. Adam also called me today, he's having a family emergency.

And Terry told us last meeting he would not be able to be here, so he has an excused absence as well.

Hey, we have a quorum. We don't have to. This is a community. We do not have to have one. This is a community.

We're not bound by quorums. So we can just do our thing.

So anybody, have you read the meeting minutes, notes from last meeting on the 21st? Any comments that we approve the minutes and. A second? I'll say thank you. Minutes are approved.

So, looking at our last work session, it's that 2-page document that we went through. Anybody have any questions or comments about our last meeting and the meeting notes from the old work session? It's this one.

Listen, oh, for notes, do. We need to— stuff tonight, for tonight. That's tonight's agenda, your hand.

Yes, the notes, it's— you have to write down Yeah, it's— this is what we're talking about. You should have some right there, Bob. Yeah, but I brought one up. Yeah, this is all you written. Okay.

Yeah,. So you're good. Enough for tonight. All. The—.

Oh, no, it's on one of. The table. Oh, it's two-sided. Let me go see. So I did have one concern after listening to the and watching the video that Loring would provide me, and there seemed to be a couple of very good, uh, that were well expressed by the council members.

Uh, one thing, or one comment that might have been mentioned— you were present, so tell me if I'm wrong— was that the, the powers was eliminated. The primary duties is to advise the city council, but, uh, it was not entirely clear to me if there were accommodations made for as directed by the city council. So issues can come to this tab as citizen to a TAB member and then be brought forward to be put on the agenda. Okay, or citizen concern or complaint or good ideas, suggestions. The City Council would also be pushing concepts back down to us.

Correct. And the duties were delineated pretty clearly, but I didn't have the general catch-all and otherwise directed by the City Council. Did we have that in there? No, but we can add that in there under advisory board. We serve at the behest—.

On this part here, under advisory board. Yes, I believe there might be in one of the other committees' bylaws. Yeah,. They may have a— there's a statement of other duties as assigned. Yeah, so if we could add that into this advisory board column on primary duties.

Oh, under primary duties, yes, over to the side. We just add that in there. And when you contrast the Library Advisors Board primary duties and functions, they have a component in there to review and recommend library budget, but I don't believe there's been any mention of any budget given to the Tourism Board. No. No.

Okay. It's not really remarkable as providing expanded services. So, the last component gets along to my request for that information, which was meant to establish a baseline as to how we got to where we are now, to see how to best structure the committee moving forward. We've made the recognition that KVB is to be an ex officio member of the body. One potential failure point that could be identified as we've gone about creating the structure of this committee is the Primary attractions in Ketchikan are what really bring the people to Ketchikan City would be, of course, Creek Street, the walk, the Totem Museum, the Heritage Center.

Of course, the Native Alaska culture is represented by the totems and of course Saxman. But those are the beautiful things that all citizens appreciate that require in my opinion, a higher level of understanding and protection perhaps from overtourism. If we were to swing with the 200— with the 2 million expected visitors by 2030 and already the concerns of congestion, the exact thing that people come here and photograph and walk and love and wish to cherish may not be represented best except by maybe someone that's sitting on a Ketchikan Historic Commission C, which could be brought in to serve as an advocate to protect the things that are actually bringing tourists into Ketchikan. Same thing could be— I think we have a ports and harbors ex officio appointed, but Creek Street is probably the number one attraction. Should we give some consideration to ex officio status of somebody that's acting as an advocate for that quote, as an—.

I think, I think what I would do is I'd reduce the number of extra-official departments that you want to put in. That's just going to complicate it and get special interest to try and affect the decision of this operation, right? They can come to this committee at any time and speak, and we can work—. Right, that's their public comment part. Yes, we, we made Abner an ex-official because he's responsible for the budget in the city and set sensitive.

But I wouldn't want to expand that to a point where you have— even in the Board and Commission I sit on, the department head for Senior Disability Services is an ex officio. He doesn't get to vote on anything. And we have Mental Health Trust, but that's it when we're dealing with senior disability services. But there's also tours and attractions member. So those people, they are members and sitting on the board.

So those people are going to be concerned about Creek Street if there's something going wrong, because they make their money on tours by taking people to Creek Street. So if something's going wrong there, they're going to voice their opinion. But. So you have people really concerned about it. And if you look through here, there's enough people in here that if something was different about Creek Street those tours, the, the transportation member, everybody who links and brings people.

Because if you look, there's a lot of tours that go to Creek Street. There's a— you go down there every day and you see the lanyards and the badges, and those tour operators are going to be concerned about anything that's going to be detrimental their livelihood. They will speak up. But that's the failure point. The failure point is failing to recognize this isn't always about tourism, and this is a council, city council responsive community elected official.

Make money, make money, make money. That is the perspective of anybody that makes money off of tourism here. The flip side is, and if we don't listen to the citizens of Ketchikan with their concerns of congestion, then we're going to be failing to miss the passionate conservative advocates that protect in this case, the Creek Street Historical Manor. So a historic commission, Ketchikan Historic Commission is a city committee, and that would be an opportunity for someone to actually be an advocate to protect that because the people making money off Creek Street aren't going to be involved primarily with protecting Creek Street. They're gonna be primarily protecting their income.

And that can be said for any— from any perspective, from anyone. I get that. The flip side also would be KVB. Nobody's going to argue they haven't done a great job with promoting tourism. However, they are to promote tourism.

That's their fiduciary responsibility as a business league, not to protect the citizens of Ketchikan from the effects of overtourism as we quickly ramp up from 1.6 this year to 2 million by 2030. The problems to put a toilet in have taken years and it's still not resolved. In the next 4 years, we're going to be dealing with 2 million passengers a year, and there's not going to be someone there that are already ready to hear these citizen complaints that are legitimate— the congestion, the all the other stuff that people are going to complain about. So my concern is that if this is going to be responsive to City Council, most of your complaints are going to start coming from those that don't support tourism. We need to educate those individuals that tourism is our flood that we benefit with the sales tax.

We need to also find other opportunities for the city to increase our income through legitimate ways that protect the reasons people come to Ketchikan to get that picture on Creek Street. So if we're going to recognize one 501 that's a business plan that profits by selling tours, we have to balance that with a 501 that will hopefully put to heart protecting the resources that people choose to live here for and choose to come see. This is a Tourism Advisory Board. It's about tourism, and if Creek Street wants to have their own representation, all they got to do is come to the meeting. So we don't need to make them part of ex officiato or on the board.

This board is the way we've set it out is about the tourism part of it. But we recognize 1501 as KVB is adequate to the ex officio. I, I would like to—. Balancing—. I'd like to revisit that because at some point the city of Ketchikan may want this tourism board to take a look at the services that KVB are providing because we fund them.

They're contracted. But maybe this is—. This is to. Keep in mind these are people who are just coming to the meetings to answer questions. Yeah, they don't need to be called ex officio.

They're. Just—. Well, let's come—. They can just come, but by making them ex officio, it, it includes— it's kind of a way to—. Because all 4 of those have a direct connection to the city, like KBB being funded in large part by it.

Yeah,. That it's kind of a—. You will be at the meeting. It's an opportunity to participate in discussions without vote. The power of persuasion is very important, and in the good hands of a good advocate like KBB's— Miss Tetley is very capable, other members are very capable— but what it is, is a power to influence at that very early discussion phase.

We have no balance for those that have true passion for protecting what makes Ketchikan Ketchikan without a profit motive. Would it be appropriate to remove the KVB executive director as an ex officio? No, no,. I would disagree. This is about tourism and tourism board, so they come to the meetings and the board can actually engage them because they have to be at the meetings.

So now you have somebody that they can engage and ask questions of about— because they're contracted. And they're here to promote tourism. So when the feedback comes into the board, they can go straight to KVB and say, these are our concerns, what are you doing about it? They're a way to hold their feet to the fire before you get to the city council. They're also managing the TDMP program,.

Right? So there's more to just than what they're doing. I think you've got a really good point though, like the whole like the pur— going back to the number one spot on this, the purpose is, uh, advise the council on strategic policies, infrastructure development, and community-aligned initiatives. And I think.

Sheldon—. Yeah,. I, I think what I would rather do is we've already decided that city manager should be an ethical issue because anything that this board is carried back to the council should be Yeah, City Council. I think we should put in a recommendation that it is— yeah, that we— if there are other ex officio members that should be represented on the board, it would be up to the seating board to decide, make that board. Decision.

Yeah, we shouldn't be appointing an ex officio. So we're, we're doing the base and let the board make any other decisions based on the needs. You say there will be ex officio, but we'll let them determine,. Decide who it is. That is, that is not how other boards and commissions set up.

I don't—. Right, so if you look at this, we have to set this up. You look at the way this is— the other organ— the commission, they're set up like— so the Historic Commission is very specific. About,. You know, who they have on board, right?

Yeah. And so, um,. How many of those board members are actually contractors to that same board or to the city council? KVB is structurally, and we already agreed to put them on the board, so the question is if we've agreed to put a 501 corporation on the board, then why not a 501 that has a more altruistic, less profit motive? I don't, I do not believe that the KVB will make decisions based on how they can make money.

No. They're a nonprofit. Yes. They, they're, but they are. Member-based.

They're contracted to the city. That is true. They're a contractor to the city, but they also have the knowledge of what is the most asked question you find, where do you feel, where do people say they want to go to the bathroom. I mean, they have that knowledge rather than us having to create a survey to figure that stuff out. And I welcome that knowledge.

However, that can be offered from the floor upon request for the mayor put in compromised status. I like that. Yes. So I, I think that, um, there was a concern that if we put this tourism advisory board, it involved the KVB, it became a mirror of the KVB. This is a separate type of operation, and, uh, I think that we're going to be doing something entirely different than what the KVB is.

If there's information that we need, we can request it of KVB. I don't think they need to be Ex officio. So take them off and then you can— the board can invite them to meetings when they need them. You just invite them. Just second.

Yes. So take them off and then if they need something from KVB, they invite them to those meetings and say, we'd like to have you here because we have questions. Yeah, that's all you do. Any other—. And you know they're going to come because they can't say no because they're contract to the city and that wouldn't make them look good.

Yeah,. Right. So you just take them off. I'm thinking at some point in time, because the city and the borough both provide funding for KBB, and it's a natural amount of funding. And there has been stuff going on with the city where they want to either reduce it or they want more accountability and this kind of stuff.

And so at some point, this board could very well be looking at those terms of that agreement if the city asks us to. Well, and who's to say that in 3 years they exist, it's what they are too. Because they can lose this contract at any time. And I've seen it in other cities, so it does happen. It does.

Budget, whatever. But I mean, the money—. Or just saying, I have no confidence in what you're doing and we're not going to renew, we'll find something new. Few times over the years too. And they're, they're going to be working, you know, one of the things is, is that the tourism, the cruise ship market is marketing themselves.

Yes,. It's the independent traveler that we really want to help. That's what you got to get after. Yeah, is we need more of the people to come up, not on the cruise ship, but to come up and stay in our hotels, eat our food, be there for 3 days, spend money throughout the community. The cruise ship people come in, they're here 4 to 5 hours, they go down and buy jewelry, and sure, no.

Money on lodging, very little money on food. Yeah, whatever. And most of them just go back. Yeah, we can, we can work the shoulders of the season. Yeah.

You know, oh yeah, well, and bring in a conference and bring in. More conferences. Keep Ted Ferry going year-round instead of it going dormant starting next month. Yeah, because it is. And then instead of just having locals use it, you bring in conferences who will spend a lot more money.

That, that's where the marketing, I think, is right. We can really get out of our contract with them. So we just take KBB off,. Do we? We don't need to push it.

Just kind of agree. No, we kind of agree to delete them from a. And, but, you know, if, if the need is developed later on, the board can bring anybody they, they wish on, right? They can make, make recommendation to council, we'd like to have this person as an ex-official member. And it, it could be for whatever reason.

Maybe we're doing a, a huge project and we might bring engineer representatives to the board, right? And that's where the advisory part comes in. The board will advise the city council that, by the way, we think we need can be back on, or who's ever in that capacity back on as the next officiator. Yeah, I think that's— that's good. Okay, one more wrench to throw into it.

Uh, for—. One wrench. There you go. Forfeiture of Code of Ethics, uh, 2.68.060, is proposed. I'm all in favor of this for the city council reason, but that is currently more restrictive than any other.

Very— I'm sorry. So I might have moved ahead to the proposed ordinance. Oh, you're, you're in the— I. Also added the code of ethics into that. Because it's difficult to define a lot of these things.

It needs to be for all council positions and committees, in my opinion, but to define these things might be a better discussion for an ordinance that's sweeping for all Council members, and. We got to start with what we're doing with the board, and that's why we put this in here. So we're going to have a board for this because we feel it's important, and that's why we put these in here. Yeah, because that way we're holding that board accountable. And I think these levels—.

I got the vibe from Abner last meeting when I, I brought, I brought that part because while we were having that meeting, they were the verbal section. That one tonight. Oh yeah, Mike, they were at the first one. A, B, and A&S was showing up. This is a good place to be here.

I kind of got the vibe from Abner when I brought it up that they're probably working on something with the city. So when the city makes like a sweeping one,. Yeah,. They can at the same time just cross this out. And we're just getting ahead of the curve.

Remember this thing, we're, we're going to present this to the city council. City council is going to run us through the cement mixer and come out with whatever they want, right? And, and Mitch may say, well, we can't do this, or maybe we can't do that. But it may say, hey, that's a good idea, let's put it everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, we're just giving them some op— so let's go to the ordinance since you brought that up. Sorry. No, no, that's a good time. Yeah, we're just rolling right along. I think you go by Katherine first.

We just have a short group here, and if you want to—. Yeah. So the qualifications are what's in the, the earlier pages. They're just taking what we decided. They're the exact same.

So the next page, we're going to strike KBB off there as an ex officiato.

We'll do that. Terms of office, which we came up with last meeting or the meeting before. Yeah, the meeting before. So we just kind of reviewed it last meeting. Yep.

Officers. Great. And then quorums, meetings and quorums. Quorum. We had a resignation from this board which made me think of what happens to the quorum if someone resigns and how are they replaced, at the leisure of the city council member?

Within—. Yeah, the city council. When I have somebody come off the board with city council, the clerk notifies me and then we go through a process of advertising. Yeah. And then the mayor will make a choice and it's confirmed by So that'll.

Take care of that. And then code of ethics, we already talked about. So that's gonna have some changes, so I'm gonna get too wrapped up. No, okay, because there should be like a vote of the remaining council or remaining board. Well, wait for them to do their little stuff there.

We're just giving this as our thoughts on what we need to do for the board,. Right? Duties and responsibilities. So we're trying to make them uniform with other boards. I think the clerk would like that, managers and services.

We did add on the, uh, at whatever issues the city council wants us to take on, advisement report. Yeah,. Was there any— because the question came up, Ty, I think you brought it up, or maybe Lori did, uh, KVB does do the total best practices management thing, and if it failed at their— within their vendors, or outside of that, it would then come into perhaps the Tourism Advisory Board. The board's an advisory level, remember that. So they're just taking information and saying, okay, the TMP didn't work and this is why, to the city council.

But does that throw concerns of citizens or other vendors or something like that somehow to the Tourism Advisory Board as an enforcement? No, no, no, they have no— they're, they're an advisory board, so there's no enforcement there. And,. And we should talk about this a little bit. So So when you get a public member, a lot of them will go directly to the city council because we're not going to be meeting as often as the city council.

So I think a lot of that stuff, if it's not resolved at the council, we have to do some research or something, they could kick it back to the advisory board. And they will do some research, they will then go back to the city council. We may, we may hold a public meeting on it. But they'll go back to the City Council with their decisions and what— this is what we found. Yeah, yeah,.

Regarding this,. I do think though that, um, from my personal experience, sometimes people bring things directly to Council and nobody else gets those emails unless Taylor looks and then she says, hey, did you see we got a complaint about blah blah blah? I'm like, I didn't hear about that. I call Kara. CDMP doesn't know anything about that, and then the member council member brings it up in a meeting, and now— but nobody else is aware of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think— yeah. And so I think that maybe, maybe we want to talk eventually about, rather than council members bringing things directly to the council, making— creating a, a process. So I, I've always told my council members, never surprise city manager. If you have an issue that you're going to bring to council, please advise them, because the worst thing that can happen is they can bring it up and the manager says, that's the first time I hear about it, I have to get back to you.

This board should have a representative that goes to every city council meeting, because then nobody's blindsided. They hear— I mean, sometimes there won't be anything, but at least they were at the meeting so they could take notes, recording, or. Whatever. Right, they need to have a member is designated to say, hey, you got to go to the meeting, or you've got to make sure this is your meeting to go to, or the next person to meet. Somebody takes a meeting so that they're— if there is a tourism item brought up, they're aware of it.

And then in their meeting, they can talk about, hey, this was brought up at the council, let's do some homework on this and see what we can come up with. So what Bob is saying— sorry, Ty— what Bob is saying is that he's asked his council to not do that. Yeah. Like not bring something up cold,. Right?

But if they go to the city manager and say, hey, I'm going to bring this up, the tourism board still may not know about it. Or, or a citizen might bring it up. Right. Well, yeah, public comment. So then a tourism board member is sitting in there going, oh, okay, I better make some notes on this because I got to bring it back.

And so one of the things that we did is in order to bring a topic forward for discussion, there needs to be at least 2 council members signed on to it. Because otherwise you can get so much abstract stuff put in that you're never going to resolve it that way. So, and same way with this board, if we get complaints and stuff, the first thing we should do is go to staff because it might be something just easily resolved. Somebody doesn't have a permit, someone has, or, or they can make a direct contact to the contractor who's driving a bus or a van or something to find out what the real story is. But it would take further action if we're looking for the long-term plan, then that's something that we can get our teeth in and do research with.

So under duties and responsibilities, we should add in there that somebody from the tourism board should attend every city council meeting. I would disagree quite a bit that far when we're already gonna— the city council may invoke the tourism advisory board to develop the process that Loring has recommended that may be outside the TB, Total Best Practice Management, that KVB has, because they should take care of their vendors. If you're a member of KVB, you should be in congruence with all that and let them take care of their membership. But if it's something that's outside membership or a citizen that doesn't want to go through that process for whatever reason, City Council can instruct the TAB to now create the process that Loring is mentioning to just make it flow so that all responsible parties are informed. But I would go to staff right away.

But I'm talking about the ones that just show up at the meeting and say, I have a comment about this. Um, well, public comment, you don't make decisions. They can voice your opinion. It's not a discussion matter. Is that— is all public comment from the city council like noted and documented?

So. Yeah, it's recorded. Okay, so that's. Fine as long. As they can.

Get that instead of having someone at the meeting. As someone that spent a lot of time in these meetings, it's That's, that's a terrible idea. Yeah. Instead, I think maybe it would be, if, if possible, maybe have staff forward any notes from a meeting that is relevant to tourism. Maybe the board could actually review the last city council meeting and say nothing in tourism came up.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, but by the way, there was this item that came up. Yeah. So let's talk about it. When those complaints come forward,.

Yeah,. From the public We did. Well, you've already got representation at the council because Abner's meeting all the—. Yeah,. You know,.

And one of the council members is a member here, right? Yeah, and then you have some advisory board members are from other councils. I sit on the SEPA board, we have somebody sitting on the Ports of Harvard board, etc., etc., etc., etc. So I don't— and I don't see the library advisory board team sitting there. I don't see the historic Ketchikan They come to the council when they have issues, questions, or ask.

And I think I've, I've definitely heard during public comments something came up that was directed at a, you know, a committee, and the comment was, hey, let's— the staff to contact the TAB or whatever. Yeah, you don't want to get into debate at public comments. It's their time to speak to the council. They get their 3 minutes and then take. Notes.

And what I say is, Abner, you got that? Yeah. And then you contact us. All right, any other things you have? So enough for monkey riches.

Again, I think that the failure point analysis was how do we get the public with their concerns incorporated early. I think we've just addressed that. Have you seen my council meetings, how much public we actually had. In? Yeah,.

You've been there,. You. See it. There's not a lot of input at the council. They may call Loring, they might bump into me on the street, or that kind of stuff.

I did really like what you were talking about, advocating about specific primary attractions of Ketchikan, like Creek Street and things like that. I wonder if it's something where, and this is just kind of top of my head, one of our duties would be to maintain a list of primary, and I don't know if you want to call it primary attractions, but like special interest spaces, locations, whatever, that the TAB would, you know, we monitor these or at least keep our ears open for issues that those are having specifically outside. It's an advisory board, remember, it's not, it doesn't set policy, it just advises when things, when things come up, they are to then kick it up. So if there's things that come in, say somebody bumps in, you're on the TAB and Somebody bumps into you, you write it down, you bring it to the meeting, and then it gets pushed up. Yeah,.

But they don't need to maintain a list of anything because they're more of a gather the information and push it up to the board. For problems, though. That's right. That's all it is. I mean, but I'm gonna have to disagree because you look at like the library has— I'm sure they have lots of lists of lots of different things that they work on that I know the historic Ketchikan and the architectural boards, they both have lists of specific, um, you know, areas and things like that.

I think it would be—. But I think those came up through—. Oh yeah, no, I'm sure they do. So I think that we should, if this board chooses to create—. Let them.

Do a structure like that. Yeah, up to them. We're just setting up the board. That's what we're doing is here's the board, here's here is the ordinances, here's our thoughts, push it up. When the board gets set, they may say, you know what, we need to do this, or we need to do this.

That's up to the board. We're just setting the board up, and then those board members will then take it. I'm not saying that we should set the list. I'm just saying that someone needs to decide and keep track of the things that are important to people that live in Ketchikan that we're trying to— because part of this is. But that won't be in this document.

I, I think you're on the right track, but I think that's going to be, uh, in regards to the discussion we're going to have on tourism impacts. Yeah, the board will have a certain section, and so through that impact, they'll say, well, we have Creek Street, we have, um, Thomas Basin, we have Thomas Street. And I think one of the things that this board is going to help with is, is support Loring in regards to the after— the after-season wash we're going to have to do. We could sit down with everybody and talk about that. And so we'll have that, we'll have that, and then the preseason, because if we say everybody's going to do this new sign-on to the TF—.

And I think one of the best—. And to not— I'm sorry to interrupt, but my point is that the only time we mention impact in these duties is economic impact,. Right? And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like Um, like he was saying, people just crushing into Creek Street so you can't even take a picture, or, you know, the traffic jams that come because people are staying, you know, those kind of things that are what the real locals are concerned about that they see.

So I think you need to broaden that because it's not just economic impact that we're going to be talking about, because when people start talking about overtourism and they start talking about tourist bus going into parts of Ketchikan and residential areas. Yeah, tell me that's—. Yeah, so. That's how I got on. I think that we should broaden that to add other impacts as—.

Oh, you don't want to be on the board? That's where you could do the impact of what you're talking about. Point number 3 under duties and responsibilities. Yes. Um, includes assessing economic impact and understanding the evolving needs of the community.

Yeah, and, and for all everything you're talking about, if you didn't— you weren't on the board, you would take that to the board and say, here's my concerns in your public part. Yeah, and I understand that. I'm just saying that if it's not something that they're designated as part of their duty, they will— people in the future will shuffle it out. If you just read what she is, that's part of their duty. I mean,.

It's a very vague because we can't make it specific because it's got to be very broad. It can't. Be. Ding ding, it's got to be abroad, and then their duties, those fall within their duties. This committee, as proposed, will be as successful or as ineffective as it desires to be based upon the people on it, and at the leisure of the City Council.

If the City Council would like for the Tourism Advisory Board as created to offload the awesome amount of information they have to take in they will offload that to the TAB. If the TAB is willing to take that on, they will turn back and give all-encompassing results. Now, when the TAB— is the way I envision it— is when the TAB comes out with an issue, they should issue a statement of consensus whenever possible. But also, just like the Supreme Court decisions, if there's significant dissent and if somebody on that board cares enough to write a dissenting position, that too could be presented to the City Council. Because we're to bring information or advice to the City Council.

So consensus when able, consent, and if there's not complete consensus, then a dissenting opinion that may bring the conflict between whatever Ward Cove wants to do with what it conflicts with Birth 4 in the city. That's a conflict that's going to happen. Or if there's a new port of Saxman that continues to bring more people in to Ketchikan, the Creek Street, and that further stresses that with no reimbursement to keep Creek State maintained because we can't get that CPV fund. Those are sources of conflict that need to be resolved earlier rather than later. Yeah, it is up to, like you said, it's up to the board to decide.

And the city. Council how successful they are. Yeah, how much they're going to actually—. Are they really engaged? Are they really empathetic?

With the custom— with the, the local residents? And are they really looking to make this city and tourism much better than it is? That's what it's going to come down to. It's how the passion of the people sitting on that board,. And if the, if the council's, uh, involved in them, right?

Right. Because I think if you have passion—. We leave the library around until there's a problem. Yeah,. But.

The other part is if you've got a passionate board board and they're coming to the city council every week with something, city council is going to start listening because you've got some passionate people that are talking. And they're— this city council is seen by a lot of people, and if the city council kind of blows off the board, but it's not going to be pretty. Yeah, because you got passionate people trying to get things done. Yeah,. And someone's going to have to listen eventually.

And to find that balance. So, um, On that 3, gather insight and conduct research, I think we could wordsmith it a little bit and get back to the— and the data to track tourism trends, economic, cultural, and community impact, and leave it at that. On, um,. The ordinance? Uh, yeah, uh, the 268070 duties and responsibilities, the third bullet point.

Okay,. Gather insight, conduct research. So, so it says, you know, current studies, surveys, and data to track tourism trends, assess economic, cultural, and community impacts. And let's leave it at that. I'll agree.

Oh,. It's on the last page. Okay. Would that be—. I don't think we need agreement.

No. And to help You know, and the impact, and then after that you can put a comment, help access them as directed. Perfect. So yeah, I don't know if the other committees have an as directed thing, but just copy. So Lorie will make those changes.

That makes sense. Yeah, no, that's— I think that works. And that basically wraps up this document. Okay. No,.

You know,. So you're. Gonna get— you're gonna get— make up clean copies of this. Yes. And then you're gonna make the presentation.

So what I would like to do is As soon as you get the clean copies, email out to everybody,. Right? So then what I would ask is that you email me back your comments. Yes, this is what we discussed, this is what we talked about, it looks good. And then we'll go to the city council.

Yeah, so part of your, part of your, uh, job, Sheldon, is to make sure that they understand in terms of process by which we get to this. The public is going to want to look at. It. Yeah. Yeah, so Loring will get this together.

And today is what day? Tuesday? Monday. Monday.

The last couple weeks have been just crazy. Well, because we had Southeast in and now I have A and B in. It's. Like, well, I did have one— it's, it's more of just a, uh, it's not really an issue, but I see we have like the one-year resident in Ketchikan, one-year resident of the borough, and then another one-year resident of the borough. Is there a reason why we do it two separately instead of two?

That's just the way it prints out. It's just the way it prints out. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it— You want me to put two? It doesn't matter to me. I just wasn't sure if there was like a specific reason.

Because it was laying out how each of the nine would—. So just like, yeah. Yeah, that's all I want. One for the Elven Kings. Yeah.

She just put each person. Yeah. Under terms of Officer, I think you can note that the first advisory board, the seats will be drawn by lot. By lot? Oh, okay.

Is that— well, is that what we suggest? That. You're gonna have— you're gonna have 3, 2, and 1, right? Right. So everybody gets to draw them by lot, right?

Because otherwise it's like, oh, you only get a year, you get 3. Yeah, yeah. Then it makes it fair. The city council member will be reappointed every year. Yeah,.

But the rest of them will be drawn by lot. So then that starts the process. Yeah, and then after that. They can run again,. Right?

It just keeps going. Yeah. Um, is there going to be any, um, term limits? The council went to what, 3 terms? 3 Terms for council.

Do any of the other committees have term limits? I don't think they do. No, they don't. No. I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing to have, because this, again, this committee doesn't have any authority or power.

And it's a small community. And the. Problem is if you have somebody with a passion and the interest,. You want to keep them on. You want to keep them on.

As long as they're willing to do it. You know how it goes when you get a board that—. There's some of them. Like, if you look at the board, like the Architectural Board of the Borough, if they didn't have people that were like so passionate about it, like, It wouldn't. Work.

One final comment, just bringing that up. The other final potential failure analysis point that I saw was this whole city borough thing, which I see no resolution to, uh, but it's been brought up enough times that it's, it's, um, it's going to be at risk. I mean, it's a city council thing. I, I don't even believe— I'm a borough resident. I appreciate serving on this committee, but it's a city council.

I always have to keep that in mind. This is for the city, uh, but there's going to be some, you know, conflicts with the borough and the interaction between the borough and the city. This is such an integrated and yet separate concept because of this different interest. There'll be a friction point there. Well, there's going to be a friction point.

Why don't we just do that? Because there's I don't think we have to define city and borough. I think what we do is they're members at large. That might be a solution. Uh, maybe— yeah, thought we had that.

Well, that's— I mean, that's what it is by definition, but it's— we called it—. So,. So that gives you the city council freedom to select. Well, then anybody that puts in for it, you can take a look at them, and you're not looking at— you don't balance it by whether they're city or borough. Oh, you know what, we did say 2 members at large that are year-round city or borough residents.

It just didn't transfer over to that. Yeah,. Yeah,. We did say it, it just didn't transfer. Although this does bring up a good point that other than the city council member and the, um, one year-round resident of the city, you have the potential to have 7 of them be borough residents.

Not appointed by the city council, I wouldn't think. I think—. I mean, it would be up to the mayor to make sure. Yeah, city council is not going to do that. And then the city council—.

Yeah, the mayor gets an earful, but. Yeah, and that's fine. Not like he has—. So you just got to look at that. It does say—.

So how many, how many at-large people do we have? Just 2 members at large. 3. 3. One from the city and 2 from anywhere.

Yes, is how it's listed now. Yeah, we have a city resident member and then 2 members at large that are year-round city or borough residents. And I also remember discussion that they can be serving more than one category at a time. They can be a cultural apparel— yeah, at the same time, as long as. You get— as long as you get 9 people.

Great. Yeah,. As long as you get 9. We're not going to duplicate the position with one person. No, you're going to be 9 separate.

Um, there was a discussion when we were first lining this out, like the different industries, I guess, about not like it not being required. Like maybe you get a situation where no local food service person applies to be—. We don't get any applications, uh, we can choose a person at large, I think, because it's mayor's appoint. Yeah,. I can appoint.

Okay, these are guidelines. As long as they— as long as, as long as that's how— I. Mean, they're not guidelines, they're not law. Yeah, so what they'll do is they'll try to get this this way, and then if they don't get enough,. Just.

Appoint people, appoint somebody so you have your 9. Yeah, as long as it's worded so it's not binding to that, because the way it reads now, it looks like considerations given or representing the false— makes it sound like they have to be at least these things. So I represent— just being a bylaw. Guy, you know, say the board may consist, don't say shall, get rid of shall, say may. May.

And. That changes the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, perfect. All in there, you're done. It's perfect.

Or. Just say May, it makes it easy. Well, you don't want to put it may consist of 9, you want to say it after that, right? Shall consist of 9. Shall consist of 9 representing that.

May. Represent the following. Seats. I know you had to put a may in there. So are you representing—.

I've had to be the parliamentarian too many times. But you know, I'm sure he'll.

Locals and that. So that's going to be the other thing. So maybe you say potentially representing the following suggested candidates, or that leaves it open. So although somebody doesn't— from the category doesn't show up, you can do something else. Yeah, yeah.

So for clarification, um, just on the timeline now, so now that we've— at the end of this meeting, we'll have kind of basically said this is what we want to submit. Um,. Will Abner then, or you, submit it to Mitch and everything else? We'll get a clean copy. Have everybody saying yes, we're good with this.

She's going to give you a date that—. Well, then I will give it to Abner. Yeah, and Abner will put it on the agenda. Abner will give it to Mitch. But what I want to do is— Lori's going to send it to us with a date that says have your comments by this.

By this date. Okay. Or forever hold your peace. That's it. And then, then we'll go to Abner and get him to do his thing,.

Right? Then he'll— yeah, and then Abner will take it,. Right? He'll give it to Mitch. Does it go through all the departments or just Mitch, really?

Just Mitch. Okay. Yeah. And then,. And then, okay, whatever Mitch does to it,.

Yeah,. Then he'll give it back to Abner. And then if he wants to change something radically,. Yeah,. Like if there's something that changes the structure of this I'm guessing we would turn it back to the, to the committee.

Yeah,. So then. We would probably come back to the council. Yeah, let's just go to council after this. I mean,.

They're gonna have to. Present it. I have to present it. You have to present it. So let's say he changes something, so it's.

Got to come back to me. No, no, no, because once we make our recommendation, we've done our job. So now. That's what I'm saying, after Mitch—. Yeah,.

They got. And they do it. Yeah, so if there's a something they want to change dramatically, right, that's on—. What am I presenting to the council? You're giving this recommendation.

Okay,. Okay. And then as any type of recommendation, they can do what they want with it. I. Would recommend—.

Thank you for your time, have a nice. Day— on the mayor's comment, may preferentially represent F Street. Steve. And would you like for us to be there when you present it to the board? Sure.

Yeah, I would love to. And I'll let you know when it is because I got everybody's emails. Oh, I think I'm busy, but okay, I'll be there. Uh, I'll be there if you want to attend.

Sorry, I'm out of town. Bye-bye. I would like to— I know we don't have to vote on it or accept it or anything, but I would like it on the minutes or whatever. On the video that, um, you know, with Dan Michelson resigning, um, I'd just like to say, hey, I'd like the committee to thank Mr. Michelson for his time that he did that also. So we do have additional topics for consideration in our agenda.

Oh yes,. Okay, what are they? Where am I? So under new business work session, we have additional topics for consideration. And that would be your additional topic.

Okay, I move that we put on the minutes, emblazon up on the minutes, our gratitude to Mr. Michelson for his time that he spent with us and wish him well on his extended period of time away. I'll second that. So we'll add that in the additional comments. We have no public members comment today. Oh, anybody else have anything else?

If not, forever hold your peace, and we are done for the day. Thank you. Thank you for your time, your effort, gentlemen, because I know you've been. Great to work with. This takes a lot of time.

It's been fun. It's been real. It's been real fun. I thought it was—. It was good.

I think we knocked it out faster than we expected to. These things give us an opportunity to meet each other and collaborate.