Senate Veterans' Affairs (Sullivan): Hearings to consider pending calendar nominations.

Come to order. And I apologize to our two witnesses. I've apologized to my colleagues, and I'll apologize to all those who've been sitting in the room waiting for this hearing to start. I guess nothing is unavoidable. But it's been difficult to keep today's schedule on time. And I'll do my best to make it up to my colleagues in particular. And the witnesses still need our cooperation. So I'm not too worried about the two of you being angry at me.

Since none of us have ever been late before to a committee meeting, we'll excuse you just this once.

That's so kind of you. Such a proving that was sort of bipartisan effort. It is to in this committee. Look, we're here to hear the testimony and consider the nominations of two individuals. Gary Shatswell to be the Assistant Secretary of Veterans affairs for Information and Technology, and Michael Tierney to be the Assistant Secretary of Veterans affairs for accountability and whistleblower. Whistleblower protection. I appreciate your willingness to serve. There are important issues that come with your positions, and I look forward to the committee asking the necessary questions to determine the qualifications and capabilities and the appropriateness of confirming your nomination. That's particularly true when there's the timing of the rollout of new electronic health records. It's back on track after a lengthy pause. And artificial intelligence is transforming every sector. It's critical that the VA to have a strong and qualified Chief Information Officer. I look forward to hearing from Mr. Shatswell, if he's confirmed how he would lead that modernization effort, safeguard data, and effectively integrate automation and AI in the department to increase access to care benefits to veterans and their families to rely on. Likewise, I look forward to hearing from Mr. Tierney about how, if confirmed, he would increase accountability, transparency, and trust among veterans, caregivers, survivors, and the VA staff members, as well as taxpayers and the American public. The va, as we know, supports millions of veterans and beneficiaries, employs hundreds of thousands of employees, and operates medical facilities and regional offices and cemeteries around the globe. With a budget that has totaled more than $500 billion in fiscal year FY27, accountability is not an option, and it's essential. I'm grateful to both of you for being here and for your willingness, your eagerness, perhaps, to take on the challenges that I just described and all. All those other challenges that we may not even recognize today. And with that, I yield to the ranking member, Senator Blumenthal.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. These are two critical positions. Whistleblowers play a critical role in bringing fraud, waste and abuse to light, and they can actually save lives. In the fiscal year 2025, there were more than 4,300 complaints, but only 32 disciplinary recommendations. The GAO found last year that VA is unable to track corrective actions taken in whistleblower cases and does not have accurate data about settlement agreements. This year's budget proposal fails to keep pace with inflation and keeps staffing levels stagnant. The request doesn't account for additional manpower needed for tracking cases as recommended by the GAO. It certainly doesn't account for the 31% increase in complaints and disclosures during the fiscal year 2025. And the budget request wouldn't support the department's intent to expand the office's authority to proactively investigate unreported whistleblower retaliation, which would increase the workload immensely. This is a recipe for continued failure. And if confirmed, Mr. Tierney, you will have to demonstrate the backbone. Stand up to this administration and to the President, United States, and say, we need to protect whistleblowers. We need to do more and invest more and provide the tools and authority that are needed to effectively do this job. We owe it to our veterans. Likewise, Mr. Shatswell, if you're confirmed, you'll be responsible for managing a technology system that I've been in the Senate for close to 16 years, like Senator Moran, has been a classic story of government failure. And it is ongoing. And I'm not going to go into all the details. I'm going to ask that my full statement be put in the record.

Without objection, but

plainly this system has suffered from massive cost overruns. It's still. Still is failing to work as intended 15 or more years ago. And the Congress is going to need your commitment to ensure that there are appropriate guardrails and transparency in how the VA uses AI and automation now. Features that couldn't have been envisioned 15 years ago. So I look forward to hearing more from you about your plans for the future, and I hope that they will allay some of the concerns that I think we have and should have about whether you will be independent sufficiently to say the administration in effect, this ain't working for our veterans because we need that independence. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Shatswell and Mr. Tierney, before being recognized for your opening statement, would you please stand and raise your right hand? Hands. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give before the U.S. senate Committee on Veterans affairs will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God. If so, please respond affirmatively. And you have, by the record, should note, both have done so. Thank you very much. Please be seated. And Mr. Shatswell, you are now recognized for your opening statement.

Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal, and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today as the nominee to serve as the Assistant Secretary for Information and Technology and Chief Information Officer for the Department of Veterans Affairs. I am deeply grateful to the President, President Donald J. Trump, for this honor and for his confidence in me. And I'm thankful to Secretary Douglas A. Collins for his trust. I sit before you a man who loves God, my family, and my country. So I begin with God. I am filled with gratitude to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose words have guided my Life. In John 15, he says, There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for a friend. Those words describe the ethos of every man and woman who has worn this nation's uniform, placing something larger than themselves above their own comfort, safety, and in some cases, their lives. If confirmed, honoring their sacrifice and service will be a guiding light to my family. I want to acknowledge my three amazing children who are watching online. Julia, Elizabeth and Garrison. I love you more than words, and I'm so proud of who you are and how it shows up in, in your faith, service, and work. My family name, though uncommon, has deep roots. John Shatswell built his first home in Ipswich in 1635. Thomas Shatswell was a drummer boy for the Patriots in the Revolutionary War. Colonel Nathaniel Shatswell fought for the Union in the Civil War. Of the eight boys in my father's family, six served, including my father. My Uncle Kenny returned from Vietnam wearing a Purple Heart. I have cousins, nieces, nephews that have served. Before my father passed, I took him regularly to the VA in Tacoma, Washington, and saw firsthand what the VA means to those who served and those who love them. Finally, to my country. I was raised in an extraordinary family that formed my love for America. We traveled extensively singing gospel music. When I was 10 years old, we toured Europe, including behind the Iron Curtain. I remember feeling the oppression as we crossed those borders. And I remember how the next time I recited the Pledge of Allegiance, tears ran down my face. American freedom became real to me. Since joining the VA as Senior Advisor to Secretary Collins on December 1st of 2025, I've met with senior leaders in the central office, medical centers, clinics, and cemeteries around the country. I sat with many veterans and heard their stories. That time of listening was invaluable from my industry experience. I began asking what if? What if we connected with service members when they enlisted and stayed present through active duty, transition and the rest of their lives? No one left behind? What if we eliminated repeatedly asking veterans the same questions and the same information? What if rather than digitizing old paper processes, we reimagined them in digitally native ways? It has been a blessing to witness the breadth of support this country provides its veterans, but frankly, we can and must do better when it comes to information technology. My conversations with leadership and individual contributors have revealed a few common themes. We need a culture of transparency and accountability achievable through Agile program management, which will also accelerate mission delivery. We must go faster regarding artificial intelligence. We need clear, bright lined guardrails of security and privacy, enabling a green light to drive productivity and human decision making. We need to leverage our enterprise data as a strategic asset, strengthening security and unlocking benefits we cannot even fully understand. My resume highlights 30 years of executive leadership, hyper growth, turnaround management. Yet there are countless untold stories. For example, I created and taught the first web development course at Microsoft in the mid-90s. I ask hard questions and I do hard work. I've had the privilege of meeting with several of you and in those conversations about improving service to our veterans, that has deepened my commitment. If confirmed, I will support the Secretary and this committee to prioritize, execute and deliver in loving God, my family and this country. The thread of service is in my DNA. Mr. Chairman and members of this committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and to be considered for this position. I look forward to answering your questions.

Mr. Shatswell, thank you for your statement. Now, Mr. Tierney,

Chairman Moran, Ranking Member Blumenthal and members of this committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. It is a genuine honor. I want to begin by acknowledging my family members who are here with me today. My wife of 26 years, Margaret, and two of my children. My son, Michael, a rising second class midshipman at the United States Naval Academy, and my younger daughter, Caroline, a rising freshman at the University of California, Berkeley. My older daughter, Madeline, is preparing for her graduation at the University of Chicago, where she's a business Economics major. Thank you also to President Trump and Secretary Collins for their confidence in me. There is a quote often attributed to Sir Thomas More, the English lawyer and philosopher, that has relevance today in matters of law. Morality aside, one must remember that the law itself is the foundation of justice and all who practice it must not evade it. In the practice of being a lawyer I was reminded daily of the importance of the principle to simply follow the law. My legal career spans 30 years, first as a litigator, then as a corporate attorney and senior partner at a Philadelphia law firm, then as in house counsel to the federal government. I've led large teams through complex, high stakes matters. In one of my larger engagements, I managed a team of 40 lawyers through my client's successful $560 million acquisition of Philadelphia's two major daily newspapers. I also represented the Delaware River Port Authority for more than 15 years, serving as senior outside counsel. Most recently, I've served as Deputy Legal Advisor at the U.S. department of State and previously as Acting General Counsel at the U.S. agency for International Development. These legal roles, both in private practice and as an in house attorney, have shaped my evolution as a lawyer. The Office of Accountability and Whistleblower Protection holds a statutorily mandated leadership and oversight role under the VA Accountability and Whistleblower Protection act of 2017. Besides oversight and policy guidance to VA's distinct administrations, the office which I hope to lead is responsible for defined procedures for handling whistleblower disclosures and senior leader misconduct. Running an organization with over 400,000 employees delivering direct services to some 9 million veterans involves one of the federal government's most demanding missions. Yet despite the unique challenges the VA faces, veterans, taxpayers and VA staff alike all deserve an accountability office that functions with integrity, independence and genuine commitment to their interests. President Trump and Congress created this office in a bipartisan fashion to protect the veterans. As the President said at the time, with the creation of this office, we are sending a strong message. Those who fail our veterans will be held for the first time accountable. I undertake this pursuit with great respect for OAWP's history of conducting investigations and protecting whistleblowers. This opportunity represents something more than a career step. It is something very personal. My father and two oldest brothers were veterans, and as I mentioned, my son will one day be a veteran. For this reason alone, if confirmed, I commit to this committee, to all veterans, and to all VA employees that I will work relentlessly and independently to continue to improve efficiency within OAWP's operations and processes. As President Lincoln stated in his second inaugural address near the end of the Civil War, the country's duty is to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan. These words are inscribed near the entrance to VA headquarters. They are not a suggestion. They are a promise, one that every function of this department, including oawp, exists to keep. I will pursue that mission zealously and professionally. Finally, if confirmed, I will work in conjunction with this committee to continue to improve efficiency within OAWP's operations and processes and address all matters independently with a commitment to accountability and transparency. Serving and respecting our veterans is our country's most sacred obligation. I'm grateful for this opportunity to appear before you and I welcome your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Tierney. In order to compensate for my tardiness, I'll forego my questioning for later and recognize Senator Blumenthal.

Thanks. Mr. Chairman.

Earlier than you.

Thank you both for being here. Thank you to your families, your spouses and your. Each of you, I think, has three children and they may be here or watching. Let me begin. Mr. Tierney, do you have any experience at the VA?

Thank you for that question, Senator. No, I don't.

Do you have. The answer was no. Do you have any experience working on behalf of whistleblowers?

I worked with whistleblowers before, Senator, yes.

In what way?

In my practice at a law firm, I had clients who had whistleblower issues, who had much personnel misconduct issues that

had to be addressed.

Did you represent the whistleblowers or the company?

I represented the company.

So you were against the whistleblowers?

We worked to support the whistleblowers, sir.

You worked to support the whistleblowers to

make sure that they weren't retaliated against.

Okay.

By other seniors employees.

But you've never represented whistleblowers, correct?

Only protecting them through my client's representation.

I note that you have served most recently as Deputy Legal Advisor at the Department of State. You were also Deputy Acting General counsel at the U.S. agency for International Development, known as AID. Was that during the time that it was dismantled?

Thank you, Senator, for the question. I was not involved in the changes at USAID as far as its size.

And did you serve in the agency during the time that it was dismantled,

sir? Yes. That was a. A gradual, long term process, but I. My role had nothing to do with dismantling USAID or letting go any personnel or changing any.

How did you feel about it being dismantled?

You know, Senator, I wasn't part of my role. I was just there really, as managing partner of a small law firm, making sure all the lawyers.

You have no opinion?

It wasn't part of my role, Senator.

Mr. Shatswell, let me ask you. You have been at the VA for a period of time as a special advisor, correct?

Yes, sir.

Are you aware that the VA has lost, whether firing or otherwise, 1300 IT employees since the administration took office?

I am aware that there were Some exiting employees, but that happened before I came and I'm not into the details of what happened.

Well, you've been there since December of last year, correct?

Yes, sir, December 1st.

And you're saying no IT employees have left in the last seven months?

Not that I'm aware of. I have not been involved in any of the dismissal or.

What were your duties there?

I was an assistant special senior advisor. Excuse me? To the Secretary.

Okay, but what was your area of responsibility? What did you do?

Thank you, Senator. It was a time of learning. I visited hospitals, I visited clinics, cemeteries. I met with senior leadership, spent a good deal of time understanding the different departments so that I could understand the way that government works and the way

that the va. Did you make any recommendations on it?

I had one presentation where after some time of envisioning and reviewing the technology, reviewing the way that things operated, I had one briefing with Secretary Collins. Yes, sir.

Would you say that it's important to restore the skilled and dedicated IT employees and their positions that have left?

Senator, I am not privy to the details of the skill level or the staff details. My review was at a very high level, functional, like departmental review, but not at a detailed employee. So I'm not aware of the individual job skills that are needed.

Well, but in general, wouldn't you agree that it's important to provide more staffing to make it work better?

Senator? Thank you. I've met a lot of the staff across the country, the IT staff, and a good amount of them are actual veterans that have transitioned into the va. That has been an amazing experience because of the. The nature of. These people are dedicated, loyal, and they love, love serving. I do believe that there is room for young, out of college, hotshot, smart kids that we. We can on ramp into the va Give them an opportunity to serve their country and build the skill level within the VA oit.

Well, may I suggest that I would have welcomed a response to the effect. Yes. We need the skilled staff that we have lost because the OIT function can't be improved without it. And we need to improve it. So I hope that will be a approach that you take if and when you are confirmed. My time has expired. I thank the chairman for letting me go ahead and I apologize. I have another, as we often do, another commitment that I'm going to have to attend.

Thank you.

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

Senator Tillis.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Gentlemen, thank you for being here and congratulations on your nomination. I intend to support your nominations or your confirmation. Mr. Shatswell. Am I pronouncing that right?

Yes.

Senator, I come from an IT experience. If you did any prep for this hearing. You know, my beef is the bipartisan failure to really modernize the VA. I've been on this committee for going into my 12th year. I've seen very capable secretaries of the VA and I've seen some fairly capable leaders in it make an attempt, but they haven't made discernible progress. What are we going to do? I mean, and if you look at it from my perspective, having done enterprise IT implementations, there's no way on earth that this scheduling system should have taken the time and cost what it's cost, as one example. And I think a part of that has to do with a lack of a rationalization of what this organization looks like, needs to look like. You've mentioned things about best practices. I've heard all that word salad for 12 years here. What are you going to try and do in your first 90 days to prove to somebody like me that used to work in the same space that you're going to do something different? You're going to hold people accountable? I've had discussions, for example, of why don't you get a program office that includes members on this committee there seeing the progress every day so that you've got champions here behind an IT modernization effort. I've never really seen a viable program office come out. They've had good consultants. What's going to be different about you versus what has been promised to me by Democrat and Republican nominees in the past? What's the secret sauce? What are you bringing to the effort?

Thank you, Senator, for the question. There's a lot in what you just asked. So let me start with, I think, to the point of a PMO office, a Program Management office. It is a necessary piece that does not exist at the leadership level of oit. That is a massive challenge. And I understand that there have been attempts to implement that in the past, and in those attempts, there has not been the requisite tooling to ensure that the visibility and the process was actually managed and the visibility was there through dashboarding and those kinds of things. One of the first tasks that I will be going after will be to implement a Program Management Office, if confirmed.

Okay.

Now, again, I think it'd be helpful for us to help you because that is roughly approximately the answer I've gotten on five or six occasions before this committee. And I think the message here, I believe that you have the capabilities to do it, but you have to have executive sponsorship and the Secretary has to say no, I'm going to be the first secretary in 12 years. It's actually followed through on a viable program office that does the sort of work to try and prioritize it platforms, initiatives, is held accountable for the initial estimate and for the end estimate, on due dates, on resources, on deliverables. It is amazing how much money we are leaving on the floor by doing this in a bush league way with one of the most large consequential organizations in U.S. government. So count me in in the remaining 214 days of my tenure, 20 to help you stand up that office. But I will tell you in this committee, the thing I like about this committee and I will miss about it is we're largely bipartisan and I think you're missing the opportunity by not engaging members on this committee to be a part of that program office so that they can report back to the chair the good work you're doing and they can identify the obstacles that need to be removed so that you can achieve the goals. I've made that same commitment to Democratic and Republican people coming into your position. I hope you'll be the first one to take me up on it because then I think you may end up being the first head of it that will actually make a discernible difference versus just barely treading water and making progress around the edges. But quite honestly, I've got to give them third quartile results aggregate over the last 12 years. If you know anything about the Gartner Madrick quadrant, on a good day they're in quadrant number three. They're never going to get to upper right if we don't have good leadership there and buy in. And Mr. Tierney, I am. I appreciate you. I know you've had a very distinguished career. You've got to be doing this because your heart's in it and you want to serve. It's certainly not because the money's great. I look forward to supporting your confirmation too. Just very quickly, just tell me how you're going to make whistleblowing something that is great that people should do to keep everybody at every level of the organization accountable. Very quickly. I know I've just gone over time.

Sure. Thank you Senator, for your question. Whistleblowing is clear that the prime point of this role, and I think as a first step, employees must feel comfortable and secure in reporting on bad conduct, misconduct. Without the report, there's no investigation to monitor and control. How I would do that is some of the current things going on. I know there's education, there's training, there's mandatory Internet training. But I think messaging is very important. And coming down from leadership, if confirmed, I would work with other senior leaders of VA career leaders and learn and educate myself about how's the process working? How do we know people are comfortable reporting? I noticed over the last several years the reports have doubled approximately. You could say that's a good thing because maybe more people are feeling comfortable reporting. You can also say maybe it's not a good thing if there's more bad conduct going on. So that's something I would want to educate myself on and learn more about if confirmed, to be in there, to be able to learn about some information that obviously was confidential. At this point, I don't have access to. Senator.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon to you both. Congratulations to you and your families for your nominations and for your willingness to serve. I'm going to start with a question to both of you that I ask now of all nominees. If directed by the President to take action that would break the law, would you follow the law or the President's directive? Mr. Chatswell?

I don't believe the president would do that, ma'. Am, but yes, I would follow the law.

Mr. Tierney.

Thank you, Senator, for that question. I similarly don't expect the president to give such a directive, but if he did, I will 100% always follow the law and ethics.

Well, I appreciate your commitment to the law. I will say that we are in a war that was illegally initiated by this president and he has refused to follow the law in that regard. He has just appointed somebody as acting DNI who has no intelligence experience, even though the law clearly says that the DNI has to have such experience. And on the symbolic front, the law is very clear that he did not have the right to put his name up on the Kennedy Senate and a court has just ruled that he broke the law in doing that. So I am concerned that you all started your answer with saying that you don't expect the president, this president, to break the law. Now, Mr. Tierney, if you're confirmed, you will be responsible for, among other things, investigating allegations of whistleblower retaliation, as well as receiving and investigating allegations of misconduct retaliation or poor performance involving senior VA employees. The Trump administration has retaliated against federal employees it has disagreed with. These are well publicized events. And you've been working, as in your own words, an in house attorney for this administration. So on the one hand, you've been working for this administration while it has actively and publicly retaliated against whistleblowers. So if you're confirmed how are you going to ensure that allegations brought to your office are properly investigated and that VA employees are protected from retaliation and that people have the confidence that if they bring a complaint to your office that they will not be retaliated against?

Thank you, Senator. That's a great question. If confirmed, I would do everything I can to make sure that all VA employees feel comfortable and secure in reporting bad conduct. Without the report, we can't conduct an investigation and even analyze the benefits or not of the investigation or the quality of investigation. So how do we do that? I know currently there are different programs like education, training, mandatory tests, but I would do more than that. And really the messaging I think is important, that it comes down from leadership. This is our role.

Right. And I appreciate and understand that, as I appreciated your answer to Senator Titlis. But look, the leader in chief retaliates against people all the time, is very public that he sees his role as president or his that he has the option as president of the United States for retaliating against people, including whistleblowers. So given that he is the leader here who sends the most dominating message, how are you going to counteract that?

Well, Senator, I believe or understand that I report to the secretary and to this committee. And again, the role by definition is to make sure employees feel comfortable whistleblowing, reporting on bad conduct and safe that they're not going to be retaliated against. And I would do everything to make sure that messaging is loud and clear and that that is what employees are hearing.

Well, I hope you will consider just what the counter messaging from the top is like and really be thoughtful about how within the VA you can really support whistleblowers. New Hampshire and its Manchester VA had a series of whistleblower events now about a decade ago, and they were very, very difficult for the whistleblowers involved, the whistleblowers. Actually, their actions I think made the Manchester VA a better place ultimately because they reported things that really needed to be reported. But you are going to have your work cut out for you given the messaging from the White House. Mr. Shatswell, if you're confirmed, you'll be in charge of information and technology at the va. One area that I've been interested in is updating the VA's scheduling capabilities. I think you know a bit about the bill, especially the technology behind those capabilities. Right now. Veterans, for instance, can't do all their scheduling all at once on one platform. So it's phone calls or Internet access to scheduling platforms kind of one at a time. And by the time you schedule one visit with one specialist and then you get to the next one, that day may have similar appointments on the same day may no longer be available. So Senator Bozeman and I have a bill that would require the VA to create a self service scheduling platform that would allow veterans to book their VA appointments all in one easy location. Our bill passed the Senate last year and we're working to hopefully get it passed through the House and signed into law. If our bill becomes law, will you commit to working with my office to implement it and stand up an easy, reliable platform that veterans can use to schedule all their VA appointments?

Yes.

Thank you. Thanks Mr. Chair.

I'm going to call on Senator Sheehy next. But Senator King, you are ineligible to speak about technology until you learn how to turn off your phone.

Well, good afternoon guys. Congratulations on your appointments. And so Mr. Shatswell, you have a lot of IT experience obviously and you know, we've been looking at ways that our care access, whether it's community care or direct clinical care, can be provided more rapidly and make sure that when those diagnoses are made and when those appointments are referred, it happens in a timely manner. It doesn't turn into weeks and months of waiting and kind of that administrative do loop that happens. So is there a technological reason why the VA could not assess at the time that the veteran's request for care or especially referral is entered in the system that a VA facility can't provide their requested care within the typical access standard and frankly abide by the law which requires, you know, that treatment to be given in a certain period of time?

Thanks Senator, for the question. The answer to that is not a fast answer, but I'll take a swing at it. When you look at the data that the VA has, it starts with the Dow and the data flows into the VA transition a little before transition, some after transition, that data is one way, then that data goes into systems and there are literally hundreds of databases. Those hundreds of databases make a very complex environment where data is enriched all over the place where with one way data feeds that makes it extremely difficult to find the connections and do what you're asking about. One of the ideas of modernizing the va, one of the areas that I believe we need to focus on, I spoke with you, Senator King, about this is we need an enterprise data platform. We need an enterprise data exchange where there's one place for the warfighter golden record where all of that data is contained. And it's the one system of record that Everything points to. So that those kinds of moments, like scheduling, as Senator Hassan said, that becomes simple. It becomes an easy problem to solve. Right now we have 14 scheduling problem or solutions that I'm aware of. That's just unacceptable.

Yeah, and I mean from the health record perspective, I mean, that should become part of discharge. Like, we can't discharge a person from active duty until their health records have been transferred and received by vha. So that's happened in addition to the discharge disability benefits exam. But I think more specifically, they're like, if a referral enters the system on day one. So we're not talking an active duty transition. Someone's out, they're a veteran, they go into the CBOC to get their specialty care. The referral happens on day one. Is there a reason why in the current system that we have or system of systems, why when that referral happens, it can take days, weeks, or months for that referral to make its way through the system? I mean, is this a. Is this a community care access problem? Is this an administrative issue, or is this a technology issue with our IT systems, that these referrals get lost in the ones and zero land forever, and sometimes it's weeks or months before referrals approved?

Thank you, Senator. I think that the root of the issue is that there isn't one system. There are systems and there are many, and they don't talk to each other. So there is a lot of work to make to build those bridges and to make the data flow. So that problem has to be solved in order to make what you're asking for a reality.

Yeah, well, it's going to be, I would hope it becomes a reductionist enterprise instead of adding more layers. Because what government does is when we want to solve a problem, we add more layers on top. And what we need to do is reduce that. We need to distill the system down to a minimal amount, hopefully one singular system that actually works instead of just layering more, you know, repaving over the same road over and over again. And we're not actually fixing the pothole, we're just paving over it.

Yes, sir. One of my favorite things is turning things off. So my goal would be to turn off as many things as possible and reduce the complexity. You also, you have a significant cyber security perimeter, privacy perimeter. When you have hundreds of databases, if you can reduce to a single one or reduce the number, it's much, much easier to protect. So there's a lot of reasons saving money, there's a lot of reasons why it Makes sense for us to do that, sir.

Mr. Chairney, your community care. So I'm a huge advocate for community care hasn't always been the most popular with the staff at the va, but I think especially in a state like Montana where we're a huge state with not many people, some veterans could have a seven hour drive to the VA clinic. So community care is a key part of the fabric of VA care in Montana. We need to make sure there's open lines of communication so that when community care is not being utilized, community care is being intentionally sidelined nationally. You know, those complaints, those reports are rapidly collated and acted on. And, you know, what can you do to ensure me that as those whistleblower complaints or those reports come in, you know, they're not getting sidelined, they're getting prioritized and acted on. Because community care, as we see a provider shortage in all categories around America, community care is going to be critical here for our veterans.

Thank you, Senator. And if I may briefly get. I recognize your Naval Academy attendance. My son. Behind me is a rising second class midshipman, and former superintendent Tom lynch is here with me today too, and I thank him for that.

There he is. I see him right there. Yep. Hey, Tom. How are you? Admiral.

Community care is very important and I've been researching and planning for this potential role. If confirmed. I have heard that from others as well. Obviously, some states are much more rural than others. And if confirmed, I would talk to the people who are responsible for those areas and educate myself as to what's happening and how can we make it better. Things like distance, the service level of care. So I would definitely look into that and talk to the people who know how it works, talk to this committee and see what can we do better and different. But 100% independence is the key to this role. And I'll be completely independent and nonpartisan on all issues. And I appreciate you bringing that one up.

Great. Well, thanks for time today, gentlemen. It's a key time for the VA to modernize and fix a lot of problems that have been alluded to that have been bothering us for a long time. So let's stop kicking the can and get it done.

Thanks, Senator king.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize to everyone for the phone ringing. I can think of worse times. To have that happen, but not right offhand in a hearing is pretty bad. Mr. Sasfeld, just to be clear, your remit does not include the electronic medical records project, is that correct?

Yeah, that is correct, Senator King.

And has that got its own Office and own leadership. Is that the way it's set up?

Yes, I believe the confusion. Currently the Deputy secretary, secretary Depsak Lawrence. Dr. Lawrence is wearing two hats as the deputy and the acting CIO. So it's gotten a little conflated. And when that role, if confirmed, I step into the cio? Yes. It stays with him.

Electronic medical records is somebody else's problem.

And Dr. Neil Evans. Correct.

Thank you. I'm going to charge you with making your job even more complicated and that's dealing with the Grand Canyon between the Defense Department and the VA and how to coordinate systems in that way so that the veteran doesn't get lost, doesn't get dropped. Is that a project that is worth pursuing in your mind?

100%. I believe that there is a lot that we can do there to improve service to active duty and veterans. Yes.

And I would hope that you would learn who your counterparts were in the department so that that kind of activity could begin.

Yes, sir. As well as senators like yourself that can help to bridge the gaps.

I'll do what I can. Mr. Tierney, I'm worried about sort of counter currents going on here. One is whistleblower protection, which you've talked about, and investigating claims and protecting whistleblowers. And yet at the same time last year it was reported that the VA was requiring their employees to sign a non disclosure agreement that did not include the legally required exclusion language for whistleblowers. Are you aware of that situation?

Thank you, Senator. I have read reports about that.

Well, I would hope that if there's another. The OPM just in the last week or so has talked about new whistleblower. I'm sorry, new non disclosure agreements throughout the federal government. Have you reviewed the language that's being proposed?

I have not, Senator King, But I will 100% say that NDAs and whistleblower activity have no role together. People, employees must feel 100% comfortable that they are not going to be restricted in reporting on bad conduct.

I would hope, as the legal counsel in this situation, that you would inform whoever's setting up these NDAs that that language must be in there that says this does not include whistleblower complaints and the protections are left intact. Will you commit to me that you'll do that?

Yes, Senator. And it's also on OAWP's website. It's very clear that any whistleblower statute overrides any type of NDA language. And I agree with that. There's no role for NDAs and whistleblower.

I agree. Thank you. I'M a little concerned. Were you General Counsel to USAID in the State Department? Was that your job title?

I was Acting Deputy General Counsel at usaid. I'm Deputy Legal Advisor at State, which is another way to say deputy General Counsel.

And just to clarify, were you in that position when Elon Musk fed USAID into the wood chipper?

No, sir, I was not.

You were not there during that period?

I was not.

Is it legal for the executive to abolish a statutorily established agency unilaterally?

Senator, I appreciate the question, but really have not researched that legal issue, and I really wouldn't be able to comment on that.

Well, you've read the Constitution. You know the law that Congress establishes, the executive branch agencies. You don't have an opinion on whether the executive can just say, well, we don't. We no longer believe we need a USAID or a Department of labor or whatever. You don't think that you don't have an opinion on that?

Thank you, Senator. Yeah, I just. I'm not familiar with the laws governing that type of issue. I've never had to research it. I never have, so.

And finally, you. You mentioned the word independently several times.

What do you.

What do you mean by the use of that term?

Well, Senator, some of the questions from both committees have centered on, you know, if there's influence or improper influence. And I just want to be clear that that's not acceptable. It's not appropriate in this role. This role is about independence, transparency and quality of an investigation and responsiveness and timeliness.

So you.

You would.

You would act independently, even if the whistleblower complaint was uncomfortable to the Secretary or to the President, is that correct?

I would give the Secretary my recommendation, regardless of what his response may be. That's my job, is to report to him what our investigation finds.

Well, I just. I appreciate those answers. The whistleblower function is very important and counterintuitive that we're enabling people to bring complaints against their superiors in many cases. And that's why the position that you have is so important, not only to protect those individuals, but to make the government function better. That's the whole idea here. So I take you at your word that independence is going to be part of your job and that you're going to protect those whistleblowers, even if their activities have displeased their superiors and perhaps your superiors.

Senator, no role is above accountability, in my opinion, whether, regardless of how senior that role is. That's. OAWP is here to protect all veterans, regardless of the seniority level of the subject at the, at the, at the moment.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. Mr. Shatzwell, since assuming the senior advisor role in December, have you used that opportunity to assess the circumstances, the current state of affairs at the Office of Information and Technology?

To some degree, I would say very opaquely from a senior leadership level. I have reviewed the structure of the organization. I have had the opportunity to travel and to see some of the technology working in the different locations, the VISNs, the SIM lab down in Orlando. So I've had the opportunity to assess it from that level.

Yes, I would think it might be a circumstance in which you get the legal pad out and yellow pages and you just start writing. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. These are the problems and these are my ideas. Have you analyzed what your first step, day one and thereafter would be in this role?

Yes, sir. As you can imagine, it's a target rich environment. There's a lot to fix. There's a lot that can be very distracting. And so as I have had the opportunity and this time of envisioning,

I've

kind of broken it up into two categories. One, we'll call it organizational and the other more on the technical side. On the organizational side, there is a significant need for a proper program management office. I call it a program or portfolio value office because at the end of the day we need to be driving the right value to the veterans. And that's the focus of everything that we should be doing at oit. So how do we do that? Getting into an agile scrum process, which is a process management, process management style that we will properly tool and train throughout the org. If confirmed, that will drive accountability at the individual worker level, it will drive visibility at the stakeholder level so that everyone knows what's going on and what's the status and the priority of their piece within the work that OIT is doing. So eyes wide open, anybody can see it. It's not a mystery. That's what we would be driving towards.

Have you yet talked to people within the OIT that work there today, work with you at the VA today and ask them their views on what's missing. Senator Tillis and Senator Sheehy both indicated the magnitude of the problems. We've heard them for a long time, Senator Tillis in particular talked about nothing seems to change. So I'm looking for this. I'm the guy who's going to make things change and here's what I know that needs to be done and I'm Going to hit the ground running. Can you assure me that you have

done that and are that person 1,000%? Senator, that has been my career experience for the last 30 plus years of executive technology management. That's what I do. I fix problems. I love the gnarly ones, the ones that are really hard, the ones that are really tough. I love the puzzles because I like to affect change and I will do that.

Love this job.

Yes, sir.

Mr. Tierney, Let me. Let me ask Mr. Shatzwell again. I'm intrigued by you being a senior advisor. Advisor to the Secretary. I'm intrigued not because of you personally, but it's been the role that so many people have been in who come before our committee seeking they've received a nomination, seeking our agreement with that nomination and confirmation. How many people are senior advisors to the Secretary of the Department of Veterans affairs, sir?

I'm sorry, I don't have a number. I don't. I don't know the number.

Two or three or. It's dozens.

No, I don't believe it's dozens. It's a handful, I believe.

How did you become a senior advisor?

I was. I was working for Unilever. I was approached with the opportunity to come and be a senior advisor within, I believe it was three weeks. I was here.

Approached by the secretary?

No, from the White House. White House liaison.

And was that, was that the suggestion that if you became a senior advisor, that there might be a role for you to play at the VA beyond being a senior advisor?

That was a possibility, sir.

And is. Is. Is that the administration's. Does it. Does it seem to you that's the administration's training ground for individuals that they may want to place within the department. Come, come be the senior advisor. Let us evaluate you and make a determination whether there's a role for you to play in a more permanent way at the va.

I can tell you my experience that was the way that it was. Beyond that, I don't have the experience to know what that would look like for other folks.

And as a senior advisor at the Department of Veterans affairs, do you advise the secretary, like daily, weekly, monthly? Is it an ongoing thing, or you're really there learning about the Department of Veterans affairs and preparing for a future position?

A little bit of both. I was absolutely there, meeting with the secretary on a couple of occasions to provide advice and suggestions into what I was learning and the ideations from that. With the opportunity to sit in on meetings and meet the senior leadership and understand the way that the VA works

and the advice that you were asked to provide to the Secretary was related to the job that you're now being considered for?

No, sir, it was broader. Looking at my background, Senator Moran, is I've been over marketing, I've been over finance, I've been over innovation, I've been technology. So the breadth of my background was bringing all of that into play to evaluate everything that was going on. And with my, my lens coming in as an industry person, not as a government person, gives a unique perspective to the problems that often, I would say, suffer from shortsightedness because often decisions are made from a political standpoint and not a long term true north plan. And so from my perspective, I'm working to develop what would be that long term plan so that we have true north over multiple administrations in the future.

Now turn to Mr. Tierney. OAWP is responsible for tracking the VA's compliance with recommendations from the Inspector General, the VA's Medical Inspector, the Office of Special Counsel, and the GAO, the Government Accounting Office. So that's a, it's in addition to the whistleblower aspect that we've mostly been talking about about today. Do you have a view about the role that those entities play in improving the services and capabilities, the quality of work performed at the Department of Veterans Affairs?

Thank you, Senator Moran, for that question. Yes. You know, I've read and understand that oawp, OSC and OIG have an interplay between the three groups as far as handling misconduct and as far as doing these reports, as you say, and I would work cooperatively with both of those other sub agencies on making sure that all of our reporting is accurate, timely and in the right hands of the right person.

Mr. Tierney, I would indicate that while I can only speak for myself, but I have enough experience with the members of this committee to have a sense, and it's certainly my sense that this committee pays a lot of attention to the Inspector General, the gao. We consider their reports serious and significant. We expect them to be abided by and if not, we expect an explanation for why what they're recommending is not accomplishable or shouldn't be accomplished. They're making themselves mistake. I don't know that there's a question in that, but I want you, if confirmed, to take maybe the question is I want you to confirm that you will take those recommendations by those other agencies seriously and with an understanding that there is an expectation, at least on my part, and I think most if not all members of this committee, that we would see decisions made at the VA that reflect what the, what Those agencies, what those entities have recommended, anything that troubles you by that with. With that circumstance?

No, Senator, not at all. I completely agree. That's a key role of the Assistant Secretary responsibility.

And I would tell you that they're not always followed quickly and not always followed, period. And I would indicate to you that in communicating with particularly the staff of this committee, but the members as well, it would be useful for us to know that you find an objection to a recommendation by the IG or the gao, particularly the ig, that you ought to let us know. And I assume that's compatible with the way you'd operate.

Yes, sir.

Let me along that line. Let me ask you to commit to providing this committee with briefings on a quarterly basis on OAWP's trends, your accomplishments, the ongoing priorities, including case processing times and disciplinary actions taken. Is that satisfactory?

Yes, Senator, absolutely.

And I would ask you, Mr. Shatzwell, a really similar question to that. I'd like for you to commit to providing the committee with briefings on a quarterly basis, at least on OIT trends, accomplishments, ongoing priorities to include workforce changes, cybersecurity threats, and modern major monetization projects. Is that acceptable to you?

Yes, Senator. I would hope it would be much more frequent than that.

While Senator Tillis volunteered to serve on a committee to give you advice of how to fix the department, I would say I would refrain from me volunteering to join you in that effort. But I want to know what you're doing and how it's going and what help you need from us. And what's the missing link in finally accomplishing the things that members around this table have indicated are important to get the VA quote once and for all in a position it needs to be in regard to it.

You have my commitment to that, sir.

Senator King, a quick follow up.

Mr. Tierney, during the nomination process, did anyone indicate to you that there was an intention to weaken or eliminate oawp?

No, Senator.

No discussion of that?

Not at all.

Would you resist and support the office as its Director if there were efforts made to cut staff or reduce the efficacy of the office?

Senator King, I believe the office has an important role within VA as far as staff. Obviously, I don't have visibility into the function yet, but if confirmed, I would analyze that and see if we need more people, need less people. I just don't have an eye into that yet, sir.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Sheehy, anything. Thank you both for being here today. Thank you both for being here today. We're going to conclude this hearing and there may be questions that we, this committee, that staff, want to ask you. They'll be submitted to you in writing, and we would expect a timely response from you. We have the leverage of holding your confirmation until we get the answers to our questions. But let me ask either one of you, which is my usual practice. Is there something that you said that you wish you hadn't of or that you would like to say that you weren't given the opportunity to say? Having heard our questions and now see the totality of the hearing, you satisfied with where you are?

I am, Senator.

Thank you.

Yes. Senator, thank you.

Thank you both very much. With that, the hearing is adjourned.

Sa. Sam.