Election Commission Worksession re Voting Methods

All right, um, Katie Nolan. I'm going to call this meeting to order. The other people here are Ann Courtney and Lauren Lehman, and Mead Treadwell's on the phone. Liz Edwards, election administrator. Thank you.

And what are we waiting for? Oh, we lost Ann for a moment.

We had slushy roads getting here. Oh, did you? Sanded well, sanded, slushy cars. I— yes, my car is filthy. I have to stop at the gas station and clean the back windshield off.

And you try to— the windshield wipers are just not effective. No, not on this stuff. No. All right, um, meeting. Two items that I have on the meeting, and the first one is going to be frustration.

Sorry about that. You're going to get stuck with that today. I apologize. But the main purpose is to understand our role and how we're functioning, how we're doing our role. I— when I joined this Commission, I did so with a full knowledge of what I was doing.

I, I've— I served on the Animal Control Advisory Board under, uh, Mayor, uh, Mark Begich. Um, that was during the rewrite of Title 17, the animal control laws, and we worked on that for a year trying to make a good product. Um, and I'm talking about like sometimes there were every week meetings. So it was a lot of in-depth work completely rewriting it. But I'm very familiar with writing code and the importance of making it gel with state and federal laws.

You have to be able to pull all of that together. The responsibility of that was— to me, it was really incredible. But my language that I actually wrote about dangerous dogs was upheld by the Alaska Supreme Court. So I think I did a pretty good job on it. Not bragging.

It's just we worked hard on it. So when— actually, it was— I think it was Kai said— Kai Holland said— challenged us to look and see what boards and commissions had vacancies and what we could do, where we could contribute, where we could be an asset to our community. And I went down the list and, and the Election Commission just— it seemed like it was a natural fit for me because I've worked a poll location for decades, uh, now. Sorry, then decades, um, including being the chair at South High for the last number of years. Um, so I thought this way of working in, I can understand both sides of, of what's going on, and maybe I can contribute something.

And before I applied, I read everything I could find on Title 28 and what, what the responsibilities were, what our duties were. And part of our duties I think we're doing, but part of our duties I don't think we're doing. And I feel like another failure in part of our duties. When you look at the first two duties, and there's under Type 28.120.060, the Election Commission shall have the following duties: act as an advisory capacity to the assembly and the municipal clerk and study and recommend the assembly municipal clerk proposed ordinances relating to elections. That's our job, and I don't think I've done my job.

After— it's very frustrating to, to look at the duties that are assigned in code and know that I'm not living up to them.

And when people, friends, call me and say, "Katie, what's this new change in election?" And I'm going, "What new change?" I don't have a clue what they're talking about. And that's so embarrassing. It feels like I'm falling down on my job. And I don't know if anybody else feels the same way, but somehow we've got to establish a better relationship, a better understanding of what our job is and how we can better perform our job, or perform it to start with, by getting knowledge of these things and being able to advise and study and recommend these changes to our codes. Does anybody else, or am I way off base?

Well, I don't know that you're way off base, but I don't know that it's as bad as maybe you are suggesting, or you think, maybe you think it is. Okay. We have actually done some, several of the things that are listed there. Maybe we haven't done as well as we should in advancing some of our thoughts to the assembly. I will acknowledge that maybe we, we haven't.

We've had work sessions, we've talked about it, but it's possible that over time we just haven't haven't done quite as good a job, but it's not for lack of trying. And I think this has been a diligent commission. If you are referring to the most recent, you know, the last two, you know, I— maybe I understand it a little bit more because, you know, I was overall in charge of elections. I recognize and things like that, and there was, I think, a fairly decent explanation for what happened. Now, it's possible that, you know, I hate to say too badly on, you know, a few staff, but maybe in talking to the media, it was— might have been handled a little bit, I don't know if I would say clumsily, but media has a way of getting in and twisting things to sell articles I guess, and, you know, the explanation as I understand it with what's going on is pretty decent.

In fact, within my own family, we have used some of those techniques of when you're abroad, sending in your ballot by fax, or I forget what all We can maybe by email or phone. We have that ability, and it's, quite frankly, it's just a few ballots that, that impacts. But for those voters, it's important to, you know, it's important to my children. They want to vote every time. We've instilled in them that we need to be responsible citizens.

And part of that is to vote in every election. So we've used that, and I don't think it's inappropriate. I don't sense any breakdown of— you know, our whole theme with Harris, we want honest delivery of elections. You know, I'd be candid, I'd like The results from the election, that's up to the voter, and I'm just one voter. But we like the delivery of honest elections, and we want it to be efficient.

We want it to be as prompt as possible. And as several of us have said, I know Meade has said many times, we want to reduce the number of ballots ballots, we disqualify. You know, that's— and, and I think we are moving in that direction, and there's probably some other ways we can go. But anyway, I, I don't know that you need to be too, too critical of yourself and what we've done during the time you've been on this commission. But having said that, Maybe we can do better.

And maybe— I don't mean this critically at all— but you might have tipped us off that this article was coming. I don't know that I— I didn't get a rash of people calling. I mean, I do have a few people who know that I'm on the Election Commission who ask. You know, if I don't know the answer, I'll trying to get the answer. In this case, I just told them effectively what happened, you know, what's been happening, and that seemed to answer the question.

Me, this is Ann Courtney.

Thank you, Lauren. I— the issue for me is not whether a policy is good or bad. I think the policy that was in the most recent press statement is great. My problem is that I feel really cut off from the clerk's office. I I don't know what's going on, and then I see something in public, kind of like Katie, and I feel bad, but I also feel like the problem is communication.

It's not whether a policy is good or bad. Policy is good. But in the press statement that Jamie wrote, I believe it was in the statement, there was a comment that the assembly had been briefed on the— this particular method of voting. Yeah, we weren't. We weren't even told about.

Yeah, so I did let Chair know, but I do have to leave in 3 minutes because it was a short— No, no, no. I wanted to make sure you all said your piece, but I have an appointment I couldn't move because we only had a 2-day notice. Sure. So to speak to the timing, so the Assembly Quality Municipal Services Ethics and Election Committee asked to see a demo of this product. So we had a representative from Democracy Live do a demo at one of their meetings.

And then they deliberated amongst themselves and they instructed us to move forward with the code changes, um, to provide for the system. So the assembly did do it as part of their, um, annual code review, um, and it was passed in December. So the timeline was very, very tight. So that's why we were just trying to get it approved so that it could be in place in time for the election season. Why can't we get a notice in there somewhere so that we can participate or at least have knowledge of these things.

The opportunity to sit in and listen.

Yeah, yeah, Madam Chair, if I could ask— yes, Nate, that question too. My question is, uh, I don't think an assembly committee can instruct you to do anything. I mean, and I guess the clerk does report to the assembly, but, but if they're instructing you without talking to us something that, that is major, uh, is that, is that appropriate? And I, and I only say that because, first off, I, I, I trust, I trust the clerk's office not to want to have a crooked election. That, don't, don't get me wrong, but I, I'm not sure I totally trust the assembly to not want to make things so open that, that there's not trust in the election.

If you're is what I'm saying. And, and on this issue where you don't have paper and where it— I, I just have a bunch of questions. I don't know, they may all be answered properly, but, uh, we work— when, when we installed kind of electronic connections to get people in the state, and we made sure that almost everything is on paper one way or the other, and it's not hackable. And a company can tell me that they're not hackable, but, you know, the streets are littered with companies that thought they were unhackable that are paying major, major reparations when they were hacked. And it's just important that it go through us.

So was there any intent to discuss this with us last December? I was not the administrator at the time. This was all done in 2024, so I was not part of the conversations. At that time. Is this Jamie speaking or who's speaking?

This is Liz. I am now the administrator, but I was not at the time. Right. So I don't have information about what transpired. But real quickly before I leave, I do want to discuss how the secure document portal works.

So it's very, very similar to how we've done voting by fax and email, which have been available since we moved to vote by mail and maybe even before. But voters have to apply, so we had— they reach out to us. We don't put the application out there, they reach out to us. And so then we will send them the application. They have to provide identifiers, addresses, signatures.

We verify all of that to make sure that they're registered voters. So then we email them a link with a specific pin, uh, pin instructions. And then one they access the system, they have to put that PIN and put in more identifiers. They vote the ballot either, you know, on whatever device. It could be a computer, it could be their phone.

They have to sign again, they have to put their signature, and then it gets submitted to the secure portal that notifies the elections team. So we will go in and we can actually print out their electronic ballot onto ballot stock, so it is on paper, and then it gets processed with all of the other ballots that get scanned. So it, it just eliminates the need for facsimiles because voters don't need to print out their ballots, fill it out, and then take a picture and send it back. Because for email, they have to print it out, they have to fill out their printed ballot, and then they can take a picture of it as an attachment in an email and send it back to us this way. So the secure portal is taking out the need for attachments on Gmail.

And it's in the secure portal, which was created by the DOD and the FBI and is monitored 24/7 by cybersecurity firm. So it is put on paper, there is a paper trail, and so it is accounted for that way. Okay. That's—. Liz, is there an app?

No, it is not an app. So it is a cloud server that is it was, like I said, created by the DOD and DHS, and so the voter is not able to access this without the specific link that is specific to our election. And they have to have a special login with a special PIN, and then they have to provide even more identifiers.

And I'm sorry, but I do have to go. How do we solve the communication problem?

I can speak with Jamie on that, but I was I'm not— like I said, I was not part of that conversation, so I'm not sure why you weren't invited to the committee. So in 30 seconds, Liz, Liz, can I, can I just give you a bit of history here? I'm so sorry, Commissioner, I do have an appointment that I could not change, so I do have to go, but you can let Chair Nolan know. Well, I'm just going to say one thing. We are not the conducting board only, okay?

Anything that has to do with legislation, anything that has to do with major change of procedures, and I would even say an unexplained change of personnel is something that we should be consulted about. And that's my understanding of serving on this commission, and I hope you can abide by that going forward. Yes, yes, we can. We can work on our communication. Thank you, Commissioner.

Meat, I apologize. I was notified this afternoon that we would have her for only 20 minutes, and she was the only person that was available.

Um, I'm going to suggest that I'm still frustrated.

I'm not frustrated with this. I'm frustrated with communication. Well, we should have been notified, and we weren't. There's a breakdown somewhere, and we need to express that. I mean, she— Liz heard it, but we probably should talk to Jamie and maybe even the chair of the assembly.

Why not?

It's a fair thing to do, just ask for us. If we're going to be donating time to the municipality for a very important commission, then we need to be consulted and I guess respected.

Well, that's a good word to put on it. It's no respect for not just me, it's for the commission. Yeah, well, we respect the assembly and they, they want that, right? They expect that. And in this case, it would have been respectful had they said hold it.

Made thoughts?

You know, I agree with what was said about respect, and one of the reasons why I believe so is And why I said what I said about a canvassing board is that, um, an election official doesn't really need to talk to the canvassing board until there's an election. All right. And the, the municipality did change our charter after the last election. There was a little bit of a kerfuffle there, but it was kind of to make sure that people, people couldn't complain to us about certain, certain issues.

But it did not say that we're not supposed to do things that you read, Madam Chairman, before. And in this case, I would urge, number one, that you as chair meet with the chair of that assembly committee and just make sure that they understand that we expect to have this with appropriate notice to do this. And if they're going to tell the clerk to go ahead and do something that's brand new, I'm still not sure that— I hear what is the saying about this, but according to New York Times, it was the first time that people could ever vote from their cell phone, uh, and, and not print out a piece of paper, not sign it, not have an additional way to check whether or not the identifier is there. I mean, I, I can tell you my identifiers— my life is such an open book, you could get my identifiers in 5 minutes. I would challenge any of you to get it.

My driver's license was on my checks. You know, my social has probably been published somewhere. The, the fact is, you know, and my birth date is a matter of public record. So I'm not impressed necessarily. And, and, uh, I think we need to be it ourselves.

And I think asking for the respect from that committee is important. I don't even know who the members of that committee are. And show us this stuff ahead of time. But, you know, this is the second time that something has been slipped into the legislation without discussing with us in the last 2 years. That's all I'll say.

Andy, your thoughts? Um, I think that I've said what I think, and, and That for me is just pure communication. I feel like we're almost never reached out to except to be here for the election counting. Meade, is there anything in the history? I know you started to talk to Liz about history.

Is there anything that I should know? Because I wasn't here.

I think if you went back and looked at the record of, of, uh, that there was a group of people who were observers of the election, the one where, uh, there were a lot of ballots not delivered to one district, and, uh, uh, there was a request to us from the observers of how to overturn an election and and so forth. And Assembly Chair Constant was, was there for much of the meeting, got very upset with what was happening at the meeting, even though the meeting ended well. We were in essence a pressure valve. We answered most of the questions that the skeptics about the election had asked. And yet, even with all that, they changed the legislation which in essence sent a signal to the Assembly that we don't really matter.

And, uh, then told us that we shouldn't look at certain issues because we might be later blasted by the Assembly to look at those issues if they saw a reason to consider an investigation. And it's, it's still very complicated. We haven't come up with an election situation where that would have been an issue since, but You know, um, I, I'll put it this way. The clerk's office is very defensive of the way they run elections, and they would— and it appeared under the last clerk they would much rather dismiss people who ask questions as agitators or, uh, you know, crazy people. And, and we don't.

We listen to them and we reasonably answer their questions. And, uh, so there was a little bit of a we-they type situation there. I don't know what to say about it except that, that, uh, you know, the issue of what is our role needs to be clarified. Is the clerk's office responsible, or are they the ones that ask that our duties be changed?

No, it was, it was, it was, uh Chairman Cotton, I mean, you started off telling, uh, the chair that you had two things to suggest, and I think we only got through one, and I may have interrupted you. That was that Katie should make an appointment with the Assembly Election Committee and ask us, keep us in the loop. What was this? And then the other is we'd like to see a— I think we'd like to see a demonstration of this and maybe even ask them to do a public demonstration of this. It was enough of a question, uh, talk radio went abuzz about it.

Um, their press release is one thing, but if they agree to show it to us We can do it as a workshop outside an assembly building, answer the questions. Nobody's— we're not questioning their motives. I just, you know, I'll put it this way. 8 Years ago, I tried to put certain election data into a lockbox on the cloud to be shared and matched with other states to find out who was registered in 2 states or more than 1 state. And the Attorney General's office said We can't put anything on the cloud because we can't control it.

If you look at what the state does with electronic elections, the chain of custody electronically is still pretty strong. Nobody's discussed with us the chain of custody here. Maybe perfect, maybe not perfect, but we ought to talk about it.

Is that barn door closed? They're already using it.

No, the election's not till March.

They may have signed a contract, but, but again, a large part of what we do is I think we help restore trust in elections, and I think we should continue to do that. Okay, so I've got the first suggestion down. Your second suggestion is we'd like to see the public demonstration of the system.

And have— yeah, it makes perfect sense. Madam Chair, should somebody meet with Jamie and talk to Jamie about communication avenues? Liz wasn't involved, etc. Should, should somebody from this Commission meet with Jamie. That's a question, not a recommendation.

That makes perfect sense. I was hoping to be able to do that today.

Well, Jamie is a very nice person. She's very professional, and I think it makes sense. Just request that time. Yep. Constructively share our Thoughts?

Okay, I can do that.

Lauren, do you want to meet with Jamie also, or do you want to have Katie, Madam Chair, move? You're Vice Chair, right? Yeah, but I will if—. What? Well, if you want, we could go together.

I don't, I don't have to. Not too many of us. No.

Well, she in City Hall, is that where you find her? She's in the clerk's office in the municipal building.

Okay, so now I've got 3 action items.

One for me and, and working with the election committee. Um, and Lauren, you'll, you'll— I'll see if Jamie can meet with both of us. Okay, it really comes down to how comfortable you are. We can just tell her if you'd like me to be there, we just tell her between us.

You don't have to ask. Okay. And then make an appointment with the election committee, Assembly's election committee, and try to convince them to keep us in the loop so that we're able to do our responsibility, and I won't feel like such an abject failure.

I'm sure you shouldn't feel like a failure. I have to agree, Katie. You know how I feel. Frustrating. I— it's very frustrating.

At least nobody quoted me in a online— who leaked your names online? I forgot where I read it.

And then ask— we need to see a public demo of the system, not just us, but for the community to put all the— make everybody feel comfortable or.

Answer questions with what we're doing.

I would say we need to see a demo and we welcome the public to be a part of it. Okay. Something like that.

And Her explanation about how this system works is a little bit different than what I— the way I read it in the press release.

I have a slightly different understanding today now than when I came in half an hour ago. Yeah, well, the press release did not explain it that simply. No, not at all. I thought it was a very confusing— yeah, press press release, and she was angry, and that came through also. Yes.

Um, and it appears that one of my concerns was that there was going to be a human involvement there to get it from the portal to paper, but apparently that's going to be an automatic. I don't think it differs at all from email voting. Okay. Except that they don't have to print it out. That's what I heard Liz say.

Okay, and we need Meade's question: how do you control a cloud?

Meade, do you have anything further you want to add? I want to make sure that when results come in, they're not automatically entered into the vote count without examination, and they get all the, uh, the coverage of a question ballot. But one of the questions really is, is that minus their signature, minus a code that's been sent to you based on verifiers that anybody can get, what, what else is there? So have they thought about a voice print? Have they thought about, uh, a retinal scan?

I mean, if it's being done on that kind of advice, you could do either one of those.

Um, I, I mean, I, all I can say is I'm not, I'm not sure. I, I agree with Lauren that having remote voting is important, and I got it done in the state, but we had ways to make sure that it wasn't, you know, I, I'm really concerned about the identifiers, frankly, without somebody looking at an ID and looking at the person. But be that as it may, when it's only a one-way street, which is we'll send it to you. I mean, if you think about it, we send out ballots to mailboxes, so we have no idea who actually opens them. In this case, we send out ballots to somebody that gives us an identifier, and so we also have no idea exactly who that person is.

We trust that it is that person, but, uh, there's, there's other things. There's ways to send a GPS coordinate with the deal that shows the person is where They say they are. There's ways to use photography. I guess what I'm saying is I have no idea what the, what the gates, state's gates are, and I'd like to know. And then I also want to make sure that they're not automatically fed in and there's a way to reject the ballot if it was improperly done.

I mean, is there any case whatsoever in which they would come to us and say, we have this absentee ballot that came in off somebody's iPhone and do you or don't you want to count this ballot? We do that with a lot of other question ballots, and I want to know how that procedure would work with us. Okay, Madam Chair, if I may, um, me, this— that are those questions that could be asked of the company that, that put this system together?

Maybe. I mean, the, the point of it is, uh, the company has got an interest in saying everything's perfect. Oh, I know. I want to know that— I want to know what the clerk's office has done to ensure that the protection exists and that the assembly understands what they've Done. Right.

Okay, any closing thoughts, Lauren?

Are we going to send a draft or send a note to Jamie before we meet with her so she can kind of be prepared?

No, I don't, I don't have anything else. The, um, the Assembly's Election Committee ought to be thinking almost all the time, how does this relate to the Election Commission? Yeah. What kind of information should we be sharing with them? I mean, that's They have us, a lot of talent here, as a resource to them.

They should be remembering us. And my closing thought is just to add to what Lauren just said. Not only should they be remembering us, the clerk's office ought to be remembering us, that to the extent that they're making major plans, or as Meade said, even personnel plans, I would really appreciate the clerk's office remembering that we do have some sort of role I feel like there was frustration under a different clerk, and that if they could get rid of us, they'd be more than happy to. And that's not what code says. And so I'm— we welcome questions, and we would love to participate.

It's our job in the ways that we are told to participate by the code. So that's it. Thank you.

Mead, closing thoughts?

No, all been said. All right, like what's been said by others. Thank you. With that, I'm going to adjourn this meeting.