Ketchikan: Port & Harbors Advisory Board Meeting July 14, 2026

7 O'clock. 7 O'clock. Should we get started now? Um, like to call to order the regular reports and Harbors Advisory Board meeting for July 14th, 2026. 7 PM.

Um, please call the roll. Mr. Stevenson? Present. Mr. Cockrum? Present.

Mr. Wilsey? Here. Mr. Bethel? Here. Mr. Lundy?

Here. Mr. Rhodes? Here. Miss Faber? Mr. Karub?

Here.

Do we have a motion to approve minutes? Pledge. Pledge. What's that? Oh, pledge.

Okay. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Sorry about that.

Uh, Miss, you have a second? Second. A second. Um, all in favor? Aye.

Aye. Aye. Pass.

Uh, looks like we don't have any communications.

Uh, no persons to be heard.

No unfinished business.

New business, discussion on need for monthly fab meetings.

You're pointing at me. Sure. So the, the issue was brought up about do we truly need to do a monthly fab meeting? And it's ideally, it's up to the fab board. I did reach out to the city clerk, and that can be changed.

We have some people that do quarterly meetings, you know, some boards that do quarterly meetings, some people that, you know, could be bimonthly. We do it monthly. If— and it's really up to the board to make a recommendation for the change. If that happens, then we can take that to— we do a memo that we send it to council saying, hey, this is the recommendation, and then they change it in ordinance. And, uh, I, I really think we should just have a discussion, or the, or the FAB members rather should have a discussion on, you know, if we feel that, uh, uh, monthly is too much, then, uh, we could set a new timeline and, uh, push that forward.

It doesn't seem to be lot going on that would require a monthly meeting. I mean, it's been pretty, pretty slow. Any hot topics come up, we can expect persons to be heard.

If we went to bimonthly, excuse me, once every 2 months, would we have the ability to change that if need be? Absolutely. I think that's certainly something that could be written in, as you know, it's done every 2 months. Or as needed. And that's how you would write that in ordinance, or monthly as needed.

Correct, correct. So, um, you know, I think that's, that's certainly up to the board. Um, that's certainly not my call. Um, what I would still do is if, uh, if we did do that, I would still do a monthly director's report and send it to everybody. You know, that would not change.

So you would always know what's going on, know the hot topics. Correct, correct. So, um, that's, that's what I found out from the clerk's office. And, uh, you know, I'll just turn it over, over to the FAB board to discuss. What does our mayor think?

So I sit on a number of different boards across the state, and you can have quarterly meetings to do your regular business, and then if you need to, you can call special meetings. If there's a topic of consideration that needs to be brought up, something comes up unexpectedly, or you have a bid that goes haywire, or, you know, there's an uproar from the community or something, you can hold special meetings. That's no problem. But your quarterly meetings could be— they probably have more information in regards to what's gone on for the last 3 months. It might be that you're going to have more meetings as you plan the budgetary issues with regard to the harbor.

Um, you know, right now everybody's out fishing or doing stuff. When winter comes, then, then they, they have time to think about stuff and come, and come to the board and talk about that. But you have the option of doing quarterly meeting, and then if deemed necessary, you can have public hearings, whatever you think you want to do with that. I mean, everybody's time is valuable, and, and to, to meet monthly with some months nothing on the agenda, basically. And it takes time for the staff to put agendas, um, and they have, you know, especially this time of year, they're busy.

If you can schedule it around what we're doing, maybe midway through the season. You can meet and say, well, how's it going this summer? Is there something that we got going on? That kind of stuff.

Yeah, I'm totally up for it. Like, like you say, you know, we haven't had a lot on the agenda that's monthly, so, um, we can do quarterly, I guess. They'd be meeting every 3 months. Believe it or not, we'd meet every 3 months then. We've done special meetings in the past, like when we did the call of the chair.

Yeah, and we've done meetings outside of here. Wayne may have something that he needs help with, and he has, you know, or a presentation on something coming up, and he could call the chair and say, hey, I think you need to have a special meeting. Special meeting, you bet. Do that, and you can do that. And once again, I would still do a monthly director's report and get it to everybody.

That'd be nice. That would be nice, Dad, just so we know absolutely what's going on. We know what's going on, Dad, right? Yeah, that would be—.

Well, and that might bring up a need for a meeting based on what your report—. I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand. Your, your report, if you send— oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Might see a need to have a meeting, right?

Correct. Tom, I, I agree with you. It's like everybody has a lot of stuff going on. So I mean, I tried to come to the meetings, but I mean, I think, yeah, it wouldn't hurt my feelings, you know. So, and you can call a special meeting.

So if something's really important, if there is something really hot going on rest assured I would let you know and we would have a meeting. Okay. I would, I would request a meeting. Major failure in the harbor of some kind. Yeah.

You know, whatever it may be.

Or I guess if, if some member of the public wanted to address the advisory board, they could contact Wayne and we could have a meeting. Yeah. They, they could They could contact the city clerk, and city clerk could forward information to the, the board.

The thing you don't want to get into at the Open Meetings Act, you know, doing with the board members. So if there's 7 of you, 4 of you can't— right, I think it's 3 maybe— but you can't do business between you, because then you're—. Don't have a quorum. Yeah, right, quorum issue. Well, you have to—.

You're doing— you're doing the public notice, so you have to be careful. Like, if when he sends the— sends the report that you don't, like, email all back, you know, it's like, oh, what about this? And then start an email discussion that the public can't get involved in. What's— what's the timeline on setting up a meeting? I know you have to notify the public of a meeting.

We put a— we put it out in the paper, uh, you know, a week. Yeah, so the Open Meetings Act for the state of Alaska requires public notice. Uh, some boards require 10 days, some boards for emergency purposes can do things 3 days, but there has to be a public notice, and the clerk would know best. Okay, the clerk would know how soon we could do it. Exactly.

And it's working days versus, you know, all the day, then the advertisement paper type deal.

So that would require a motion. It would. And I don't know if you guys were looking at quarterly or That is, once again, that's up to the other month. It's up to the FAB. I suppose we could change it if it's—.

I mean, maybe start out quarterly, and if we need to do it every other month, change it. Quarterly seems like a long time. Well, it's what, every 3 months? Yeah, it's a long time. The hospital does— it started off when I got on there every month.

Then every other month, and now it's quarterly.

And it depends on where you sit at the table, you're busy. Because I've become more busy on the quarterly side of it, all the business that— or the issues that come up that's being discussed at the top tier. So it— that's my experience. But start out every other month and see if that works for you. And if you still find that you're not having enough context in your meeting to warrant it, then you can change it.

I think that would be better, just to start short and then lengthen it out. Well, you are the advisory board, and this is where the public can come and talk to the board. So maybe having every other month, you don't have that large gap for the MnAB to be expressing concerns. Yeah. So I'll make a motion that the Port and Harbor Advisory Board meets every other month.

I'll second that. Or unless, unless needed to meet more frequently. Does that need to be in there? No, because you already have that option. Okay, good.

Okay, so all in favor of Moving regular meetings to a bimonthly meeting. Is this—. So, sorry, every other month? There you go.

It's all in favor, say aye. Aye. Aye.

My next question is, when would it start? Will the clerk have to do anything? Yes, we, we would have to put some paperwork in. Um, ordinances sometimes have to have two readings, right? Okay.

And so she would give you the proposed date once you bring it to the clerk. They— we can get back to you. So that'd be in the clerk's privy? Yeah. Okay, I'll do the paperwork and get it to the clerk, and then we can get back to you to let you know when this is, you know, when it's going to take effect, if that's okay.

That's acceptable. Is, is the monthly meeting in the ordinance? I thought it was a little more big than that, like the chair shakala meeting. It's actually an ordinance. We looked it up, it is monthly.

It is monthly. Yeah, it is monthly.

And you might check with the clerk, Wayne, and see if there's an option to where, um, you can leave it in the hands of the board and not have to have it in ordinance. Okay, I will do that for maintenance purpose. That way, if you guys need to change trade it. Maybe put a minimum, yeah, like minimum quarterly or something like that. Or, but it can be at the discussion of the board, and so the board through a vote can change it and, and review it every year.

Yeah, depending on what's going on in, in the Port Harbors world.

Cool. Okay, we'll get working on that paperwork.

Yes, that takes us to the director's report. I'll just go down the list real quick. Not a whole lot has changed from last month. As we know, Knutson boat launch, that's in the hands of the DNR. We have that request in for that upper parking lot and we're in a queue.

And that was the last time I called them, they were just the same thing. You're— we're in a queue and we'll get to you, it'll take a while. So that's where we're at with that. Just a general harbor master is continuing to make the rounds of the harbors, assisting users, monitoring safety equipment and vessels, assisting summer vessel transiting the area. As you know, there's an increase of sailors here as well, so we're trying to accommodate them as we can.

Temp harbormasters are working evening shifts and summer hours have commenced. We have harbormasters, the assistant harbormasters there, the temps, they're working the evening shift up till 10 o'clock at night. Floating breakwater, Bar Harbor North, Army Corps of Engineers meetings continue. We had one last week. I believe we have a pre-construction meeting tomorrow, and I got a little video today from the Army Corps.

It looks like they've This breakwater is, might be on its way up here. I saw a video with tugs pulling, pulling those up, so I'm pretty sure they'll be up here probably in the next week or so, if not sooner. Got an issue with the harbormaster's public showers. The building public showers are inoperable due to a collapsed drain pipe. Our maintenance folks looked at it.

It's beyond their capability. We've reached out to plumbers. We had, had them have a look there. They're in agreement that they think it's a collapsed pipe. The problem with that is it's underneath a concrete floor.

And we had the company that was going to come out. They came out last week, briefly looked at it, and they're going to try to schedule and get to it. So I don't have a solid timeframe to give you other than late July, early August is when they're going to be able to get to it. I don't know how long that's going to take, but it's looking like it might be quite the job. So just be aware of that.

So, Wayne, is the floor itself tiled? It is tiled. So, yeah. So when you do that, will you have to replace the tile and entire shower, you think? Yeah, we're going to have to probably— well, there'll be a section anyway.

It looks like they'll have to break the tile up. Cut the concrete. There's also bigger problems too, because apparently there's, uh, underfloor heating that goes through there as well. So we've got some issues that we're going to have to get to. Unfortunately, I can't give you a very good report because nobody's pulled anything up yet to really see.

They tried to get in and bore it. Unfortunately, the pipe size, uh, they can't really get a camera down. It's kind of too small to really get in there to look at—. Look with the camera. Well, what I think is can we, if we have the ability to bore from outside under the building to reach that drain?

It's a possibility. I don't know who can do that in town, but it certainly— that's— I just had it done at, uh, I've got a place in Texas where that's how they did my pipe drain. They bored underneath the concrete slab to do the work. So that's certainly a possibility. Yeah, but when they show up, I will bring that up.

Yeah, because if it's a matter of getting a piece of equipment rented up here, and it's cheaper than the full demolition, it might be worth doing. Good point. Is that something wastewater could help with? We, uh, we actually brought, um, Public Works maintenance folks in. Uh, they looked at it as well, and they're, they're like, you're going to need a plumber.

We, we can't do this either. They, they came down to try to give us a hand. Um, because it was beyond what we could do. And I said, hey, do you guys have a camera? Can you come down?

Uh, Public Works was kind enough to send their maintenance folks down. They looked at it too, and they were having issues getting, getting around a corner to look in there. Well, the other thing we could do is dig a hole in the parking lot, come up from there, because it's probably ABS, and you just cut a section out, get a camera in there, right, and figure it out from that side maybe. This is a very, very flat run out there. It's tough.

And the main sewer is probably across the parking lot. It is. Yeah, it's on 107.

Yeah, it is flat. Yeah. So there have been a lot of comments from our fishing fleet. Um, yeah, there's probably some unhappy folks. We know that.

Um, I wish I could give them better news, but I can't. But they've been relatively receptive. You know, they, they get it, you know, and we, we've told them, look, we, we can't fix it. We've got plumbers that are, you know, weeks and weeks out. Um, we, we were trying to get them scheduled.

They were on their books. Um, but you know, what's the ceiling height in that shelter? Probably 8 feet, 9 feet. I was wondering if you could do a raised section and take it outside of the building rather than tunnel underneath. And then drop it into a manhole outside?

I don't know. If you did, you know, you'd have to have probably, uh, some kind of a pump to get it up and over. Is that— no, no, you just raise your shower up, raise your floor, step-in shower, raise the floor. Yeah, and then you get the—. If you have the headroom.

Yeah, yeah, if you have the headroom, you can do that. Yeah, yeah, you would have the headroom. Yeah, so then you just Then you're not tearing up the floor underneath and you got complete access to it. Whole lot cheaper. Yeah, they'll probably have to put a wheelchair ramp up to it or something.

Oh, grab bars. Yeah, yeah. So you can put a ramp in a corner, tie to the wall if anybody needs a wheelchair. We will, uh, we'll query the plumbers when they get there. Yeah.

Um, let's see, let me keep going here. Raw fish tax funding, we've got some good news. As you know, the borough agreed to give us $60,000 for harbor safety improvements. Uh, grant's been provided and executed, and, uh, Mr. Wilson's working diligently on, uh, getting the new safety equipment ordered— the life rings, fire extinguisher cabinets, and the replacement safety ladders. Uh, on Fab's recommendation, we are ordering more robust ladders similar in design to those that are installed in Rangel.

They're the more fiberglass ones. Um, and we're also going to install some highly visible flags to mark all the locations of the, uh, the ladders. Now, keep in mind, the existing safety ladders are in good and serviceable condition, are not going to be replaced at this time. We've got $60,000. We're going to order what we can order, and then we'll take it from there.

But it will be an improvement on what we've got. Yes, sir. I was down at the drive-down ramp the other day and there was a guy who was drinking down there too, but he went swimming and then had trouble getting back up because, you know, it's big and then, you know, swam over. I thought we were gonna, thought there was gonna be a rescue situation going on, but he swam over to the other like lower float and climbed up there. But I don't think there's a ladder on that.

On that whole drive-down float. You know, I was just on there and I, I honestly don't, don't know off the top of my head. Probably not one that you could climb up on. And you're gonna have to put it on the end probably. Yeah, so that's good to know.

And those, um, floats are so big around. Yeah, I don't know how you could shimmy up there. He was trying to get up on the, you know, the framing around the piling there, you know, and he almost had it, but then And then he just swam over to the— it was a nice day, but yeah, he had his whiskey bottle out on the—. Yeah, that, that could be a little bit of a, you know, keeps the Coast Guard busy. Yeah.

Okay. Um, and really with the port, uh, you know, as you know, cruise season's going, we all know that as we drive through town. Um, we've got the, uh, Port Operations Coordinator and oper— uh, and the Assistant Operations Coordinator with the assistance of temp workers. Uh, they're performing security and safety duties on the port and the streets during this very busy cruise season. Um, 2 temp maintenance workers been hired.

They're augmenting our maintenance staff. They're really kind of helping out, uh, weed whacking, cleaning up, doing things, uh, helping us out here during the summer months. And the full-time staff continue to perform day-to-day maintenance for both the Port and Harbors. We've got this little stretch of nice weather and heard today that we've got the maintenance folks ordering some concrete to do the patchwork basically in Bar Harbor. You know, they're looking around, you've got the bad patches of concrete that they'll start working on.

Summer season been moving nicely. Seen numerous cruise ships visiting Kitskandale, as you know, quite a few. Been a noticeable decrease in transient visiting vessels when I wrote this earlier, but it's kicked up a little bit more now with the seiner fleet in town. General seiner, or just general transients, you know, the folks just going up the Inside Passage, that's down. And I believe that we feel that decrease is kind of associated with this year's higher fuel prices, and I heard that today from a seiner about the fuel costs and oil costs, so on.

So everybody's feeling a bit of a pinch. Let's see. And as you know, Ports and Harbors, we have numerous capital improvement projects that are currently underway, and we talked about those last week, and they're in your list here if you'd like to see them. And that is the Director's Report. All right, thank you.

You're welcome.

Um, do we have any future agenda items?

Board member comments?

I have none. Just thank you.

Thank you to main staff. As usual, doing more with less. The same. Thanks, James May.

And I did get an earful from a fisherman about those showers and the overall, uh, feeling of, uh, how well— how, how they're not treated that well for the amount of, uh, business they bring to this community. That goes with the territory. Yeah, and you know, all we can do is apologize, unfortunately. Thanks everybody. I think that one of the things you got to realize too is that we're entering into budget season and all the departments will be submitting their future budgets for the city of Ketchikan.

So pay attention to what's going on there. We will have 3 full-time and 1 one-year seat up for election this year, which could change the dynamics. Yeah, who knows what, you know. So just keep that in mind as you're, uh, looking at future expansion budgets and different things like that. It'll be under some scrutiny.

We do have a new city manager on board. I think Abner is going to be a good fit for the community and open door policy. And so any of you have any questions in regards to harbors or other issues with the city, catch him, and he'd be more than happy to work with you. You have some history here. Yeah, can I have one more comment?

I'll circle back around to the rockfish tax. I know Jay was working on This board's discussed it a lot. It's yours. Of the, the, you know, the, the unfairness of the whole entire thing, right? Because, you know, we, we realize the borough incumbents is a city, but us as city dwellers think that we should be in charge of that raw fish tax.

And myself, as associated with a Sainer who produces about 80% of it. It—. I have real strong feelings about it. It should be used on our docks, our ports, our harbors. Yeah, the whole thing.

Yeah. No, well, they know they're useful. My, my comment would be I would echo exactly what Russell's saying because— and I, I completely understand what the guy that was saying, he, he feels like disrespected or not. You know, the, the seiners probably pay the most, but the other fishermen pay it too. So they're important to this community.

Yeah. So it's, it's an inconvenience, things break down like the showers and stuff, but you know, if you're a fisherman, I mean, you probably just want to take a shower after your opener, you know. That's— yeah, that raw fish, fish shack is legislatively driven, and so we would talk to Jeremy and Bert and talk about if there's a way we can change that formula so that it comes directly to those that operate the harbors. Yeah, reading the, reading the legal formula, it's really weird that the borough gets as much as they do because almost all the seafood that's landed, because our processing, they're within the city, are within city limits, and The way they have that formula set up, there's something weird going on. Like either one of the processors is putting like Ketchikan Gate or something instead of Ketchikan as the landing port on their paperwork, or I don't know.

I still think there's something screwy going on. Well, there shouldn't be a differential between city and rural because we're all rural residents. Yeah, but I mean that— so the, the formula, as I understand it, it, it's, um, the borough gets— because it's like kind of population-based and where it's landed, it, it kind of separates the outside of the borough. And the—. When I read that, that— not the ordinance, but the regulation, you know, that says how that, that's set up.

It, it—. The borough shouldn't get twice as much if all the seafood is being landed in the city. There's just something weird going on there. Yeah, the common sense would say that it would all go into a, a fund that would support the harbors. Yes.

Yeah, it would be a pass-through.

Yeah, why? Because they don't manage any harbors.

I don't want to speak out of turn, but I will, at least for the short term, you know, I would recommend that, you know, fishermen go to the borough and speak to them about it.

We were able to go to the borough and they gave us this amount for the, you know, safety improvements. So that's good, but You know, it is a discussion, and we all live in the borough, so you certainly have the right to talk to that government as well.

Thank you. Can I have one last thing? I'll just say real quick to Mr. Rhodes talking about sainters and fishermen or what have you. I actually had a conversation with a stainer today as well. And, you know, it was in line with, you know, there's not enough space here.

You know, I can't, you know, it's hit and miss. It's not like it used to be. And, you know, he's frustrated and I understand that. And, you know, we're always working to try to, you know, accommodate as many people as we can. But as we all know, there's limited space and a lot more people coming in, and whether that be sailors or whether that be transient vessels or whether that be people that have their own personal vessels that are tied up in the harbor.

So I just wanted to kind of make that note to everybody that there is some frustration there. And we understand that and we'll always continue to try to figure out what we can do. But, you know, there's only so many spaces there and only so many people we can, you know, fill it, you know, and give them a place to stay, you know, for night. But historically, we never had enough space for them. They used to raft 8 deep going off the city flow.

Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. So that's— and that's how they managed it. They rafted.

You know, you can't do that no more though. Yeah, well, there's the way the configuration is. Yeah, yeah. That's why I was so upset about the new floating breakwater. If there was some kind of way to utilize that whole entire—.

If you could do something on the outside of Thomas Basin where they could raft there, you could get a full drive-down float, some piling, and then they could raft off of that. You could add a lot of space outside the breakwater. Yeah, we talked about that. Yeah, um, well, it used to be Trident, now it's Silver Bay, their outfall. Well, if you go on, you know where those, those old pilings are right there?

That's, that's city property. Sure, that city tidelands out there. And so you could, yeah, in the summer that'd be totally use. Yeah, or, you know, I was thinking you just— if you put a, um, you know, you had a float, if you put some pilings in there, a float that you could put in there seasonally and have it so that, you know, the piling hoops are easy to remove, so you could just like pull it out and yeah, tow it in, tie it up to the inside of the breakwater somewhere where it's protected in the winter so it doesn't get beat up, or at least build it robust enough that it can survive over here.—. Or that too, you know, maybe double H pile them and put them—.

But the one they're taking out is spoken for at Bar Harbor? Yes, the one that's there, that's, that's, uh, that's the, uh, company that'll be taking that away, correct? That'd be a great use for that, but you need a full float there, and, and if you could get it so it's dried down so you can deliver stuff right to the fishing vessel, be nice. Yeah, I was sitting on the— well, you were— we were both in on that drag-down ramp. Yeah.

And where it went in was the 365-day spot. Yeah. Because there was a lot of push for putting it out there in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. And I spent many, many hours lobbying against it.

Just because of what the situation is in the winter. Yeah, you know, where it's at. And Matt LaCala was backing us for where it's at, but I'm not so sure to start with. We needed to drive down, vehicle drive down. I mean, just for money.

Yeah, you know, but that's just my thought. Well, you can make it performant or something like that, you know. Yeah, 5-foot 5-foot ramp. 5-Foot ramp. Yeah, but I think— and they could still wrap out.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, but after— that's why I say an H-pile to make it robust enough that can handle the weight. Hold it. Yeah, just go to Tito Yon's. Yeah, send him a roll of felt.

But that, that's the only place I can see for future expansion for something like that. Well, that's what I was thinking, the outside of the new breakwater they're putting in at Bar Harbor. You're gonna have what, 200 feet? Yeah, I gotta raise my hand on that one. We actually asked about that, that new breakwater, and the Corps of Engineers said this is not designed for this and you can't do that, right?

And it's theirs, so you know, it's kind of hard to fight with the feds. So yeah, anyway, yeah, hindsight be it what it was, it's what it is.

That's pretty good. That's— that breakwater is pretty long down there at Tom's Bay. Yeah, it's all deep water. It is.

The fishing boats would like it that way. They don't have to anchor out down there. They could just all raft to it. Yeah, because there's a lot— it's pretty robust place there. And around the evening, saints get some stuff back to shore and Yeah, but anyway, and you could probably even put a waste pump out in there.

Can we back up and put that on a future agenda item?

I don't know. I don't know what to think. I think it's worth like pursuing, you know, and it has to start somewhere. Discussion. Yeah, because it's going to take years to get it done, you know, to get funding and everything like that.

But if it's ever going to get done, we have an adjournment. I don't have a problem with it. Is that right? Let's look at the features, ownerships, depths, type of depth that you have to work in, that kind of stuff, you know, see if it's feasible to do so. Well, we'll just kick a cruise ship off.

What's that? City. City outside. Yeah, city on the parking. City on the—.

Yeah, they own the tidelands out in front too. Yeah, that's a big chunk there.

Who does Goodale own, or who owns Bay Company on front there? You remember where We used to tie up there on the pilings up when—. Yeah, well, that—. Wait, huh? I don't know if that's big.

University of Alaska. Yeah, that's what I'm—. UAF. That's what it is. University of Alaska.

So I think Mako's told me they're—. They have limited access to that. Yeah, because they don't really use it. Don's mother used it when he was doing welding application up both Yeah, John Murphy used— they used to— we used to bring stuff from the water side. Yeah, yeah, from the water side, drop leads down and go to work.

Yeah, lot of stuff.

So the future agenda item would be discussion on utilization of that specific area for moreage? I, yeah, I think there should be a float put out there just because it—. I mean, it's—. We have nowhere to expand and our harbor is plugged. I mean, there's wait list for everything, right?

So it seems what you can do is give direction and you can get some maps and you know, that kind of stuff. You get some charts to show you what the depth is, and you start out easy and just looking at to see if it's really feasible or not. You have a map of the surrounding areas and ownerships that can get all that through the borough or the city, but shouldn't be a big deal. And those piling are creosote, right, that are there? No, they're steel.

They're steel? Yeah.

I mean, you could, you could probably take an old junk float and tie it up there and you'd have sander start rafting on it. They probably would. But I was just thinking the permitting, because I know when I replace my creosote float and creosote pilings, can't reintroduce them into the water. No, but when I told the Army Corps what I was doing. They says, well, Brindle has never permitted that, so there's no permits anyway.

I said, well, I want to replace them all with steel and concrete float. Took me 35 days. I had the permits from the Army Corps of Engineers on something that was never permitted. Yeah, so you don't want the creosote in the water? Yeah, but that's all I wanted to say.

There was a— there's already a Yeah, they're already existing infrastructure. The permitting might be easier. Yes, absolutely.

That's the way they looked at it. And there was no permits to start with back then. They just, they just did it. Didn't think—. You were there.

I was there. That's how we did it. That's how we did it. If you have, if you have a float there big enough, there's going to be some wintered Lamps that might want to utilize that. Yeah, bigger boat.

It's a rough spot sometimes in the winter, but anyway, with the right kind of bumpers. Yeah, that's what I was hoping would have more to go, but that didn't happen.

So the borough's fault.

Can I go home? Baseball game's probably over by now. We have a motion to adjourn. Moved. Second.

Second. Second.