Shelley Hughes and Anti - Fentanyl Advocate, Sandy Snodgrass

Have Your Say with Hughes. Tell the truth, tell the news. From Bristol Bay to the frozen Yukon Blues, we're talking what matters. Every hope, every day's a laugh. Uh-oh, uh-oh, this is you.

Uh-oh, uh-oh, have your say, have your say with Hughes. Hey, Have Your Say with Hughes. Hello Alaskans, welcome to Have Your Say with I'm Shelly Hughes, candidate for governor. And today I have with me Sandy Snodgrass. Thank you so much.

She is— I'm going to claim you as my new friend. We haven't had a chance to visit, but I can tell there's already connection. And I'm really eager to have you help me learn what I can about the story you're going to tell regarding your son and fentanyl and to help Alaskans understand the issue. Um, part of the reasons why I'm having these conversations is so that I understand from the people that are on the ground with some of these issues, the challenges that are faced and, and get ideas. I'm working on developing policies and things to move our state forward in the right direction.

And the fentanyl crisis has been around since about 2010. I know in 2024 there are 124,000 deaths When you think of our military forces and the kind of deaths and things that happen out in the field when we take on causes, and then you think right here at home in one year to have 124,000 people pass away because of fentanyl, it's pretty serious. So I welcome you to our Have Your Say. It's your chance to have your say and help me understand, help Alaskans understand and how we can better address this. So I would suggest if you just want to tell a little bit about your story, maybe, you know, how long you've lived in Alaska, where you've lived, and maybe a little bit about your family, and then lead us into the story that started you on this path, because you have become a national advocate for this cause.

And when you— we'll talk too about your recent trip to DC and what that was all about. You were recently in Juneau, so begin your story just telling us a little about what brought you— or were you born here in Alaska? A little bit about your family and lead us up. Thank you for having me. It's nice to get to know you.

I moved to Alaska with my family when I was 4 years old. My father was a mud hand, they called them then, and he worked at Swanson River. So he's been in the oil business. My family, you know, had the t-shirts, oil field trash and proud of it. All right.

So he ended up to be a tool pusher in the end. So he worked his way all the way up to a tool pusher. And we've lived in Anchorage most of my life. I've lived, I'd spent about 10 years as a commercial fisherman. So I moved around on Kodiak Island, Kenai Peninsula.

Worked out of Dutch Harbor. So I did that while I was going to school. I ended up graduating from UAA with a master's degree in clinical psychology, so I became a clinician and worked in the field for 25 years. Was that in Anchorage then, or predominantly? I did a bit of a geographic to Southern California when my son was 2 2 years old.

We moved to Southern California from the time he was 2, and we moved back to Alaska when he was 12. Love Southern California, did all the things, really enjoyed it, but he was an Alaskan boy and he wanted to come home. We came back every summer to visit my sister and her family that still lived in Anchorage. So he knew he was from Alaska and he knew he belonged in Alaska, so we brought him home. Yeah, when he was 12, it was part of it.

Um, and when you said Southern California, I can't help but notice how summery you look and how dark I am dressed, and, and that difference. But I think your story is so different from, um, for many of us, and it's an important one that we hear. So you moved back when he was 12 years old, you lived in Anchorage, and just kind of lead us up to the incident that occurred that brought you to be a national advocate on this issue. So he was an avid outdoorsman. He was a free solo mountain climber, which— that's the phone call I thought I would get— is free solo mountain climbing means he was going up by himself on mountains with no ropes.

And so that's you know, terrifying as a mother. But he never got hurt, he never got injured, he always came home from those adventures. He, like many, many, many young adults— young adults, he was 17— he got his wisdom teeth out. Mm-hmm. He came home from the dentist with a prescription for oxycodone.

I gave him those pills. As prescribed. We have substance abuse disorder on both sides of his family. He was aware of that. I was aware of that.

But I, you know, my child was in pain. I gave him those meds as prescribed by the dentist, and he never came back. He never came back. What year was that? When he was— he passed away when he was 22.

In 2021, so it would have been like around 2018. Yeah, 17, 18. Okay. When he would go mountain climbing, would he, um, take cameras? Was it— do you have photography from his adventures?

I do. He, he was a graduate of the National Outdoor Leadership School, which is in Palmer. All right. And he did an expedition out of Palmer and was certified and had a mountaineering career in mind for himself, a beautiful life guiding people through the mountains of Alaska. So he really, um, you know, he really had a beautiful life plan for himself here in Alaska through NOLS.

So, um, tell us a little bit after he was prescribed the fentanyl, um, were you aware of Was there a request for more prescriptions, or how did it go after that first prescription? He did not request more prescriptions. I think it just triggered something in him, that altered state of mind, and he enjoyed that clearly. He was an adventure seeker, so that adrenaline thing that he got from doing all kinds of sports his whole life, and that prescription altered his consciousness this enough that he started looking for that in other substances. So he was smoking marijuana, he was drinking alcohol, unbeknownst to me.

And when I found out, I was very proactive in helping him to stop, and he was in recovery at the time of his death. He, you know, went pretty far pretty fast, pretty far pretty fast. With his substance abuse disorder. So was he still in high school then when that first dentist appointment— he was in high school? What high school did he attend?

He was— he went to Frontier Charter. He was homeschooled. He was— his, his teacher, his high school teacher, was his rock gym coach. So he was working at the rock gym. His coach was his teacher.

He was basically at the Rock Gym. And so those years after he graduated, was he functioning, uh, pretty high functioning as far as work and those kind of things, or did things start to slip? It took him really, really quickly, and he was not able to work, and he became someone that I didn't recognize. I didn't recognize my own son. He wasn't safe to be in my home.

He and he wasn't allowed in my home. He was violent. He was just unrecognizable very, very quickly. And by the time he was 20 years old, he was living on the street in Anchorage. How was that for you, especially with your background in clinical psychology?

It must have been so hard. How did you process that? So I eventually, you know, I recognized what was happening. I could see what was happening, and I've learned through my own experience and through working that until someone's ready, they're not ready for help. So I would say to him, when you're ready to do something different, let me know.

Mm-hmm. And he did come home in the spring of 2012. 2021 And said, I'm ready to do something different. Okay. And he went to detox through South Central Foundation, completed medical detox.

They did a bed-to-bed transfer for him to Sean Lute. He did inpatient treatment. And where is that located? In Anchorage. In Anchorage.

South Central Foundation. Well, the Sean— what was it? Sean Lute is a program. Oh, is that through South Central? It is.

Okay, okay. And they were wonderful there, wonderful to me and wonderful to Bruce. And he graduated and he was back at home. How long was that, that treatment, that program? Seanlute was 6 weeks, and he was in medical detox for 10 days prior to going to Seanlute.

And he was doing outpatient treatment, attending meetings. Doing all the things that he needed to do to get back to his life. Mm-hmm. They gifted him a mountain bike when he graduated, and he was riding that mountain bike just everywhere. He loved that mountain bike.

And he went out on a Thursday afternoon, and I know the dangers of relapse for particularly young people. Mm-hmm. And I know that every time he walked out the door, I would say to him, Bruce, I love you. Please be careful out there. And that's the last thing I ever said to him.

Mm-hmm. They recovered his body 2 days later. So do you know what happened on that day then? I don't know what happened. And, you know, 2 days of him being gone, I figured, you know, something had happened.

But I got a phone call from APD. Is Bruce Snodgrass your son? And I, I knew then, I knew. I said, is my son dead? And they didn't want to tell me on the phone.

They said, are you at home? We'd like to send an officer in your home. And I just insisted, is my son dead? And she did say yes. So, and it was an overdose then?

Yes, um, I, I assumed that it was going to be an illicit drug poisoning, and we can talk about poisoning, um, and somehow I could have maybe accepted that more easily had it been a drug that he was accustomed to. A street drug, heroin or methamphetamine or some combination of illicit drugs. But his toxicology report came back 2 months later and it had fentanyl. It said fentanyl. And I'd never— I'd heard the word fentanyl.

I knew it was in the lower 48. I did not know it was in Alaska. I don't believe Bruce knew. That it was fentanyl. I think he was unsuspectingly poisoned with fentanyl.

The amount of fentanyl that it takes to kill you is so minuscule. 2 Milligrams in anything, 2 milligrams, which is equivalent to about 10 grains of table salt, will kill you. Wow. And to your knowledge, he had not had fentanyl before? Correct.

And were— are you— were you given any information to know maybe where he got it and how it transpired, or is it just the, the report on the, the lab report? Just the medical examiner. Yeah. So I saw that on the toxicology report from the medical examiner, and I just was shocked by that. So there was no investigation to by law enforcement to figure out where he got it?

Or, you know, whether—. Sadly, no. Yeah, that's a problem, don't you think? I would think, because that's one of the things I think, you know, part of this conversation is we need to be aware of how serious and how quickly this can happen. But we also, you know, we— it's— thank you for sharing your story.

I know that must be hard. You've been speaking a lot, uh, out in the public, so you're used to sharing it, but it's very, it's very hard to hear because I know you loved your son very much. You know, I have children and it just breaks my heart to hear it. And, um, but the, the piece that I'm trying to help learn today is what could we do as a state. Government can't fix everything.

It's not meant to fix everything, but sometimes there are certain things that we can do to alleviate some of these problems and keep our young— steer our young people away from these things. So that's part of this conversation. And to me, people that are providing these kind of drugs, the law should come down so severely on them. And the fact that it wasn't investigated— do you know why it wasn't? I don't know why.

Um, Then when Bruce passed in 2021, there were not a lot of investigations and it was classified as an accidental overdose, which I no longer, and many of us in the community of fentanyl poisoning no longer use that term. We say drug-induced homicide. Mm-hmm. And I'm very passionate about using those correct terminology. It was not an accidental overdose because he didn't know that it was there.

There's no FDA recommended dose of any illicit drug, so how can it be an overdose? It's a poisoning. Mm-hmm. So then it's a drug-induced homicide. So law enforcement have been my very, very best partners in this.

Unfortunately, there is no investigation of my son's death, but they are investigating investigating now more—. Good—. Than they ever have. Has too much time passed? Is there any way that it still could be investigated, and is there any pursuit of that?

Not in my son's case that I'm aware of. Okay. There is a 5-year statute of limitations, federal statute of limitations, that actually we're starting to talk about changing that law, and I'm in conversation with our delegation in DC to change the federal law and remove federal statute of limitations to be able to investigate illicit drug deaths in perpetuity like we do any other homicide. So what was the date in 2021 that he passed away? October 26th.

Okay, so we're going to hit 5 years in October, right? Okay, well, it seems like if they're investigating cases now here in Alaska that they should, you know, and I just urge those of us listening, I know law enforcement works very, very hard. I know that they've got a lot on their plate, but I hope they would reopen that and look at it because whoever provided that to your son could still be out there and that's not okay. So yeah, thank you for Thank you for sharing that. Can you maybe tell us, you were in Washington, DC recently, so tell us what that was about.

I saw a picture of you, I think, were you in the Oval Office for a signing? I was. Okay, tell us about that legislation, what it does and how your work on it, because I'm sure you didn't just show up at the last minute. I'm sure there was a lot of work in advance. So I told my family, that I was gonna take a run at fentanyl.

And we've been, you know, Alaska is kind of retail politics. So we know Senator Murkowski and I started working with the HIDTA director, the High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area federal program that we have in Alaska, Director Troster at the time. Mm-hmm. And he was gonna have a Zoom meeting with Senator Sullivan. And I was talking to Troster.

So I was on the Zoom meeting and there were some other people on the Zoom meeting. My sister was there and we were talking about Bruce and talking about Alaska. Alaska was number one in the nation for increased deaths due to fentanyl that year in 2021, up 73%. Wow. What—.

And this would have been what year? 2021. 21. 21. The year Bruce died.

Okay. So we were having conversations, Senator Sullivan, Senator Murkowski, and the Haida director mostly were talking about illicit drugs in Alaska, and one of Murkowski's aides said we should write Bruce's law. And I, you know, the conversation went on, and then I got a call after the meeting was over and Senator Murkowski said, we, you know, we'd like to start having meetings on Bruce's Law. And that's how it started. So Michael Troster, the HIDTA director, and myself and Senator Murkowski's staff started meeting every Wednesday and drafting Bruce's Law, which provides federal prevention and awareness campaigns through the Health and Social Services Department around illicit drugs, particularly illicit drugs that are contaminated with fentanyl.

Okay, and so this is through the U.S., the United States Health and Human Services Agency? Right now, Secretary Kennedy, yes. Yeah, okay. And do you know how they're going to be— so it's basically a curriculum that— or information they'd be disseminating? So it just passed, it was signed December 1st, so it's transferred over to the Health and Social Services Department and they have, apparently, my understanding is, I could be wrong, 3 months to run it through their Health and Social Services program and take a look at how Bursa's Law is going to be implemented nationwide.

So we're just in the near the end of January now, so they're just starting that process is my understanding. They probably have to write regulations, I'm guessing, so by March you might know how they plan to roll it out then. Yeah. And is that information that would be in the schools, or do you know, can you tell us any more as far as how, where they're going to aim it? So it's for young people, 18 to 24.

Okay. I'm hopeful that that age will be lowered so that I— 'cause my real passion is to go to middle and high schools and do presentations. I think middle and high school, particularly middle schools, unfortunately, they're still willing to listen to adults. By the time you get, you know, later in high school, they're just not hearing. They're just not hearing from, me, and I generally can get their attention once I start talking about my son and his death.

I can usually get their attention pretty well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And in the school, so the federal law is, is through Health and Human Services, but you're also having conversations with state lawmakers about getting information in our, in our school schools at the, you know, high school level. Is it high school?

High school and middle school. Okay, you want to tell us about that effort? It's, it's underway, but it's not very far. It's not very far along yet, right? So I started a nonprofit, AK Fentanyl Response, and that predominantly was my aim, was to get into schools.

And I do that every chance I get, middle and high schools anywhere in the state. I want to do the AK fentanyl presentation that I do with the DEA. So the state, um, Representative Rosha introduced HB 6166 2 years ago that would do similarly through the education department what I'm already doing in schools, but it would make it mandatory that there was education in middle and high school rules surrounding illicit drugs, particularly those that are contaminated with fentanyl. It didn't go anywhere really in the first 2 years, but my understanding is it's going to be reintroduced by now Senator Rauschauer and others. Senator George Rauschauer, right?

And he's, he's, um, from Sutton. Um, good guy. And one of the things that we hear, just having served in the legislature, when you are requiring districts to do something, they refer to it as unfunded mandates. Oh, we can't do this, we need money to do it. But I want to push back from that and even from the Department of Education requiring extra fiscal notes to prepare the curriculum that the districts could use because we are paying people.

Whether it's, um, as in the state agencies as well in the school districts. And, you know, sometimes when you're in a job, you're given another duty to do, right? So I don't really believe this should get stuck in the finance committees because of a fiscal note. And one of the reasons why it's pretty perfect, uh, pretty— makes sense to me, and we were talking before we went on the air, that the curriculum is pretty much already out there and it's developed and it's basically adapting what is already available. So it's pretty clean, simple process, should not get stifled in the House and Senate Finance Committees in my view.

And you know, those of you all who are listening, there— we don't have the bill number yet because it will have a Senate bill number But that's something that if this is interesting to you, that you could weigh in and you could ask the education committees in the House and the Senate to please hear the bills and to move them out and move them along. And you could throw in— my advice is, is get rid of the fiscal note so it doesn't need to go to the finance committees, because we kind of joke about the finance committee sometimes being the graveyard where bills go and die. Because so many things get routed. It's a time factor very much. They just have difficulty taking everything up.

But this is something that I'm sure some schools are already talking about it because we all know it's a problem. But if we could have good curriculum that's readily available and it just, it would become, I'm guessing, part of health education, which is part of the curriculum in the middle schools and high schools. So it seems pretty common sense to me, and as dangerous as it can be, I think kids need to know, as, you know, as young as they're able to process it. So thank you for that. Um, yeah, and tell me, when did you— because I'm sure you went through a process of, of grieving and trying to figure out, you know, what all happened back in You said October— what was the date?

October 26th, 19— not 1921, 2021. And at some point you had a conviction that you needed to do something. Can you tell us kind of personally when you had that awakening that you knew this was going to be something you were going to fight for? So I think The word fentanyl alarmed me, and so I started learning about fentanyl, and it just wasn't okay with me. This is not okay.

That— and I learned—. I—. It was actually Skidmore then, um, in our state's attorney's office. Skidmore did a news piece around the time that I was getting the toxicology report back And he just, he, you know, read the numbers for Alaska. He said we had X amount of deaths, this X amount of fentanyl poison, fentanyl deaths.

We're number one in the nation for increased deaths. And I thought, that was Bruce. One of those numbers is Bruce. And I called the news and said, I can put a face to that. You want to see somebody, that's one of those numbers.

And they came to the house and they did an interview. And everyone grieves differently, and they should do that any way that works for them. But I felt better after I did that. I felt better. Yeah, it was therapeutic for you to begin to try to help other people.

Yeah, that's, that's actually really incredible part of your story and the difference. You don't— you, you'll never know how many kids, young people you've saved in the end, but I'm sure you already have saved some for sure. You know, that's, um, that's Deputy Attorney General John Skidmore. He's over the Criminal Division. I worked with him on, on different pieces of legislation.

Very interesting. So that was pretty soon, that was within a couple months, then you started this journey. And so working with your— you formed your nonprofit, you've been out there speaking about it, you worked at the federal level, you're now working at the state level. And one of the things in this conversation is for us to help figure out what we could do better, right? So as I said, government doesn't solve all the problems, but is there something In addition to getting increasing awareness among our young people, whether they're in school or out of school, you're working on that front, um, changing the statute of limitations and really using the right language so we can go after these people that are distributing it.

Is there anything else that you could see as far as the state, whether it be laws, um, just I'll open that door and you just let me know what you think. So, uh, Michael Troster, again, my— the HIDTA director, really was my mentor in the beginning, and he would always talk about a three-legged stool and that attacking this illicit drug crisis that we're having in this country needs to be a three-legged stool. The first stool is prevention and education. The second stool is law enforcement and interdiction And the third, third leg of the stool is treatment for people that are in active use. So we need— and he would talk about pressing on all three legs, otherwise the stool falls over.

So we were talking about Set Free, we're talking about rehabilitation centers and rehab that are coming online in Alaska, and that's beautiful to watch. It's really beautiful to watch. People recover that are willing to give that a try. So one of the things that I learned as a clinical psychologist is when that person's ready, like my son that came home that day and said, I'm ready to do something different, that needs to happen very quickly. And there, the intake process of filling out the forms, getting the You know, do you have a driver's license?

Those kinds of barriers to people that are asking for help is killing people. Mm-hmm. It's actually killing people because they cannot fill out a stack of paperwork, have their Social Security card and a driver's license, and do you have your TB test done before you can enter treatment? If someone reaches out and for help, they need help right then. They need to be scooped up at that time, and while they're in the treatment, those other things can be sorted out.

And I think, although I'm sure that the program at South Central— I can't make any judgment call because I don't know that much about it, and maybe it's really helped people, but it sounds like your son probably would have benefited from something like what Set Free Alaska is doing. And Set Free Alaska is— I am not sure how many years they have been around. And I told you before we started recording that I knew the two founders. I actually knew them when they were in high school. Amazing young men, such a heart to help people.

And their outcomes have set a national standard. They have been called upon and written about nationally and internationally. Because their approach is very holistic, very comprehensive. So I helped actually get funding for them for a pilot program that we thought could be replicated and would actually save the state millions of dollars over time because the process right now where people end up back on the street, back on the drugs, back in jail, and it's a vicious cycle, a revolving door. Until eventually, you know, sadly many pass away because of overdoses or poisoning.

And so I think these kind of programs are part of the solution. When you talked about the prevention, the treatment, so the prevention would be the federal bill and the high school, middle school one you're working on at the state level. But then the treatment piece would be we need treatment programs that would work. You know, I, I was an intake coordinator many years ago in the 1980s when I lived out in Bethel for Fuluk Alcoholism Treatment Center, and one of the things that I was stunned was everyone that I was processing coming to the treatment had been there numerous times before. Now we know when somebody has diabetes, for instance, they don't always stick with the program and their doctors have to get after them so they can fall off the wagon or or someone, you know, who's trying to lose weight or whatever.

It can be a process. So it is the same with substance abuse. It is a process. And sometimes, you know, they fall and they've got to get up again. But the beauty of the residential treatment and being holistic, I think the success rate is so much better.

And as an example, and you can share more because I know you've been involved with Set Free and you've had conversations, But my understanding is their residential program isn't just treatment, that's a big part of it, but they're also making sure the young men and young women have good life skills, they know how to be good parents, they know how to manage their budget, that they get job training to get really good jobs so they can afford their housing, and really help them get their act together in, in their entire lives and That might take a different amount of time. It might be, you know, a matter of months or longer, or longer than a year, whatever it takes so that person has a really solid foundation and a whole different group of support and friends. And it's, it's a whole new life that they start, and the success is off the charts. So that is something, you know, that I, I think we're right now, we're looking at our Department of Corrections budget at the state level, and it has increased. And so we've got it— we've got to do what we can for some of these people to get them in the kind of treatment where their life will begin anew and they will not back end up back down that road over and over and over again.

So is there anything else that you can think about as far as, for instance, Set Free or treatment where you think is key that we should know? So I totally agree with you with what they're doing in the Valley. For some reason has got this. So My House. Yeah, My House.

True North. Yep. Dylan's Place. There's a number of fairly new treatment facilities in the Valley that are doing exactly what you're talking about. They are taking people day one when they come in, they keep them.

And give them medical detox, inpatient treatment, and then aftercare services for housing and schooling if they want to go back to school, or job training. So that— and one of the other places, it's, um, that's been doing that for a long time, and I will think— I just lost the name, but they've been doing it at Nugent's Ranch. Oh yeah, for decades. Right, right. And I just love New Gen Ranch for the way that they treat people out there, and they do have a lot of people from corrections there now, I understand.

So there are some facilities, particularly in the Valley for some reason, not in Anchorage. We've got some coming, but the Valley really is a model for how to treat people with substance abuse disorders. And I'm guessing they have waitlists too because of the success and the amount of facility space that we have will be important in that regard. Yeah, so I think that one of the things that's been successful with some of these programs is that people have gone through it, are very vocal in giving their testimony, and then some of them will end up working at the facilities and then they encourage the new ones to say, "Hey, I did it, you know, I've been clean and sober for X number of years, you can do it too." So I think that kind of fosters real encouragement that helps with the success also. So I know, I think down in the Kenai they've replicated, I think Set Free maybe has a location down there.

One of the other things that they have a facility for women where they can actually have your children, because this is a family, a family affair, right? And you can— we can talk about sometimes these things get passed, you know, from both sides of the family, generation to generation. So I think having children and the whole family in the healing process and the recovery process is the right way to go. Would you agree? I do, for sure.

And we talk a lot about treatment. I do too. I believe in it for for sure. I live in the fentanyl world, and I often say, you know, fentanyl will kill you before you have a chance to recover. And so that really is— there's wonderful things happening in treatment, but if we don't do something about fentanyl and other illicit drugs that are coming online now in Alaska that are even more dangerous than fentanyl, carfentanil Specifically, we don't need to, you know, we don't need any more treatment beds because people are dying before they get to treatment.

So yeah. Wow. So in your conversations and what you've learned since 21 and working with law enforcement and your friend that's helped mentor you, do we have an idea where the fentanyl is coming from that's coming into Alaska and what kind of work are you aware of That's really, 'cause you talked about the three-legged stool and tell me again, it was treatment, prevention was one, law enforcement was one, what was the third one again? So upstream prevention, interdiction and law enforcement and treatment. So those are the three.

What was the second one? Interdiction and law enforcement. Because I'm thinking kind of the floor of where the stool is sitting is You know, we wouldn't even need this tool, right, if it weren't coming in, right? Yes, I know that that's very complicated and very hard to stop it, but what have you learned about where it's coming from and what is being done to try to stop that come— the fentanyl even coming into the state of Alaska? So I am apolitical, I don't adhere to any political party, but I can tell you that Day one, when President Trump took office, he declared drug terrorist— drug dealing organizations drug terrorist organization.

Day one when he took office, and that changed everything when it comes to fentanyl. Two weeks after I was in the Oval Office, I had mentioned to him that fentanyl should be designated a weapon of mass destruction. Two weeks later he did it. Wow. He signed an executive order that fentanyl is now a weapon of mass destruction.

So that allows the federal government and Department of War and the DEA and the FBI— I, you know, get pretty adamant and so hopeful about this— to cut the head of the snake. We need to find the head of the snake and cut it off. The head of the snake China. Mm-hmm. The body of the snake is Mexico.

The tail of the snake was Venezuela. So, so we're getting— yeah, we got the tail. Yeah, got Venezuela, because all cocaine has to be assumed to have enough fentanyl in it to kill you. So the cocaine that Venezuela was bringing into this country was just a way to adulterate fentanyl into the drug supply in this country. The head of the snake is China.

Do you—. And you know, there's still fentanyl problem in Alaska. It's not eliminated, right? It's, it's still here. So still some is coming in.

Um, do you have any sense in your communications with law enforcement, is it coming in, um, on barge shipments? Is it coming in on air cargo? Where— how is it getting in? So if you ask the DEA that question, and everybody does, Their standard, standard answer is it comes to Alaska the same way everything else does. It comes on boats, it comes in the mail, it comes in planes, it comes in ferries, it comes in vehicles, okay?

It comes on body— people body packing it on the airliners. Every single way. Wow. Wow. So it makes— that makes it very— if it were just coming in one way, you could nip that a little bit easier than when it's all these multiple ways.

That makes it really, really challenging. So probably, and is your sense, the focus is the border, Mexican border is a good place to focus and stop, you know, try to intercept it at that point? It's a very good way to stop a lot of it, but these folks are businessmen. And they're smart, and their business is illicit drugs, and they are figuring it out. They're figuring it out, and they figure it out in Alaska fairly easily.

We're very easy, easy to infiltrate, particularly rural communities. There's no— if you can get it past the Anchorage International Airport, you can get on any charter plane any small airlines, and there's no security after that. So, I don't want to put you on the spot because you may not have data just right off the cuff, but is the per capita rate of methanol problem worse in rural Alaska as opposed to urban, or is it pretty similar? It was, and that has changed, and I believe that the rural communities are now somewhat policing themselves, and they know when there's someone that they don't know in their community, and they take care of it. So we also have some small airliners that will call law enforcement when they see someone coming to go to a small community.

The example I use is, um, Lake Clark Air called law enforcement and said got a guy over here that doesn't look right. And they came over and they confiscated 3,000 fentanyl pills going to Togiak, Alaska, a community of less than 800 people. Wow. Which could have killed everybody in the community, that amount. Well, thank you to that airline for, for watching out.

Is there, uh, an awareness campaign for the small commercial airlines that are going to the villages are— is there— that's pretty well known, they're kind of looking out for it? Haida has put that out as well. Okay. And you'll see it when you go to the airport. Report drug trafficking.

If you see something, say something. Mm-hmm. To the Alaska State Troopers or to Haida or the DEA or your local law enforcement. So Haida has put out a really good campaign on that. So we, I, my very best partners have been law enforcement.

And I'll go back to when the reason I think that's true rather than health and social services, which is who I thought it would've been. Mm-hmm. Law enforcement, those guys are the first responders. Yeah. And they're getting called to these scenes like my son's death.

Mm-hmm. Of a, a young man. Mm-hmm. Who's dead. And they go over and over and over and over.

And they have asked for help, you know, they've asked for help from me, they're asking help from the community. When the police officer met my sister and I at the scene where my son's body was found, said, this is— I just came from another family telling them their son was said, I don't— and he, he was 50-plus years old. He said, I'm not, I'm not new at this. This is something different. This is something I've never experienced.

We need to do something about this. Yeah, yeah. So law enforcement is asking for help. Yeah, they are on the front lines on this. So it sounds like Anchorage Airport, there's, there's some of that happening.

Do you know with the ferry system Are they trained or asked to be on the lookout as they're loading, unloading ferries? And because those are going into some of our coastal communities. And there's no security on the ferries either, no screening. So I don't know about the employees, but the task force in Southeast, they have a wonderful law enforcement task force that's making lots of interdictions off the ferry. Mm-hmm.

So they're aware. It's— I don't know about the staff on the ferry, but, um, again, I just— I can't thank law enforcement enough for what they're doing. But they of course can't get everything. So the tables— going back to your question about rural versus Anchorage— the tables have kind of turned. So we just, at the State of the State a couple of days ago, heard about Anchorage And we have, I think, 40% of the population in the state is Anchorage.

We have 60% of the deaths now. Okay. In illicit drugs. So they just gave that statistic. That was Governor Dunleavy when he spoke before the joint session in the State of the State.

Yeah. And you were there and you were introduced. Yeah. And because of your your work and you're not done. Yeah.

And this, you know, it could very well be a lifelong kind of thing just because it's such a huge and complicated problem. I was just trying to think, you know, you got— you have the ferries, you have the airlines. So at the Alaska-Canada borders, do you know if there's any special thing happening regarding illicit drugs there. I'm sure they are. I'm sure they're trained.

But just since the rise of fentanyl, do you know, is there anything different? I don't know that specifically, but, um, so that'd be a question for law enforcement. Sometimes they don't answer those kind of questions for me. Um, I, I'm sure they are on the border on both sides. Um, I think, you know, and the Postal Service— we didn't talk about the Postal Service is huge.

So you can— and the internet, you can order anything you want on the internet, and it's very easy to get. That's many times how unfortunately elder— elders and young adults or even children get pills is from an internet site that looks legitimate that is not. So, um, young people think they're ordering a Percocet or a Xanax or an Adderall, and it is not. And it gets delivered to their house just like you'd order anything from Amazon or any other site, delivered right to their door. Do you know, is there technology that's being developed to try to be able to detect, you know, because, you know, post office millions and millions of packages.

Is, is there anything that is being developed that might be able to sense this kind of thing? And I was thinking the Port of Anchorage, you know, wondering, you know, if they're taking any precaution or if they've made calls to law enforcement about things that are suspicious. Do you know about the Port of Anchorage and tech— any technology that's being worked on? They have scanners now that you don't have to open packages. Okay, we just need more of them.

So, um, Senator Sullivan, I— you know, the Postal Service, we need more of those scanners. We need more people out there at FedEx, UPS, you know, and Postal Service, at the, at the port with those scanners. And when they have them, they're, they're quick, they're effective, they're effective. Do you have any clue what percentage of packages are being— I'm— it's probably really small that's being scanned. It's really small.

Yeah. So actually, that's, that's a really interesting thing. I wonder what it would cost to have enough scanners and people scanning that you could just pretty much catch everything coming through. That would be wonderful. Yeah.

If we could stop the flow of fentanyl, you know, you can't take an illicit drug if there's not one available. So that would really be something. So for me, I, you know, I can't do any of that work, but I can tell kids exactly that. If you never take an illicit drug, you'll never die from an illicit drug. Absolutely.

100% Preventable. And then back to the online, because that crosses state lines, it actually crosses international lines. Is the FBI or anything trying to figure out which of these sites are not legit? And is there work being done on that front? There is, and I know a lot of parents in the Lower 48, that's how their children died.

And Snapchat and Instagram and many of those sites, um, the difficulty is they are very, very savvy, these drug dealers, and as soon as a site goes up and it's detected, they shut it down and start another one. So it's very, very difficult, but the DEA, the FBI, Homeland Security work on it very, very diligently and shut them down as fast as they can find them. But then they, they pop back up somewhere else. Do they ever use the term— this is old school, maybe tell my age— but they used to talk, talk about drug pushers. I'm wondering, like, on TikTok and the Snapchat, the things that younger people are— do you actually have people that are reaching out to these young people?

And not that, oh, the child just thinks, oh, I'm gonna go look for a site, but are they catching people that are actually reaching out to our youth? Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, and not only youth. There's— I have a family here in Alaska.

He, um, who is a doctor here in Anchorage, for years. I went to him when I was a child. He, um, retired and moved to a smaller community. His wife, who was 77 years old, ordered a Percocet online for some reason. He was no longer a doctor.

She ordered a Percocet online and died. Wow. And after she died, that person or entity, whatever it was that sold her those pills, reached out repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly. Did you need something else? Would you like more?

After the woman was dead. And I can tell you that's an open case with the DEA. Oh, so they actually had a way maybe to go after— yeah, yeah. Which, what's interesting, um, we haven't talked about how this problem crosses all sectors. It doesn't matter a person's income, it doesn't matter their skin color, their background, where they live.

So do you have a little information? Again, I'm kind of putting you on the spot, so if you don't have precise data, but you mentioned an elderly woman. I had heard one time at one point with the opioid crisis that it was often professional men who were, you you know, uh, good jobs, but it was through prescriptions that they would get hooked. And, um, so do you have any information about the demographics of where we're seeing the problem? I know there is a concentration with young men, but that's— it's not just young men, correct?

Correct. So, um, fentanyl is the leading killer of 18 to 45-year-olds in this country. There is nothing else that kills more people 18 to 45 than fentanyl. In Anchorage, the fastest growing demographic of young— of people dying is 14 to 18 year olds. There's nothing that's killing more 14 to 18 year olds in Anchorage than fentanyl.

Wow, that young. Wow. And then you mentioned elderly. That is— that, that's probably a bit more rare, but it's still happening. It's growing.

It's growing, um, and that is predominantly online. And they, you know, maybe had a doctor that was willing to prescribe to them, and the doctor's no willing— no longer willing to prescribe them the dose or as frequently as they've built a tolerance. And so they start looking for it somewhere else. Is there any in the federal on conversations, is there any kind of certification or marking that a legitimate pharmaceutical company could have so the person knows, okay, this is a scam, this is not a legitimate— has there been any conversation like that? So, and then an education awareness campaign about don't order from, you know, pharmaceuticals unless you this, this label or something.

Is there any effort along those lines? So the DEA does— that's the DEA's job in this country to do that, to monitor pharmaceutical drugs in this country, and they're very diligent about it. And they have put out many warnings about pharmaceutical— from off-site pharmaceutical companies that are not legitimate. Again, they change them as fast as they get identified. They change it to something.

But it seems if I go online, I should be— it should be so well known what I should see if it was legitimate. So maybe they're doing it, but it's not common knowledge yet, right? So they've got more work to do. And this actually maybe could fall under the bill that you just were present for the signing in DC. Could it maybe that— or that's more— but it, but it's about education and awareness, right?

For young people, Bruce's Law is for education awareness, but prescription pills are certainly a huge, huge issue. And one thing about that is one workaround that they've discovered is we test tell young people not to take anything that's not prescribed by someone in a white coat. Don't take it. Don't take it, even if it's an aspirin. No matter what it is, unless it's from a bottle with your name on it that was given to you by a pharmacist, don't take it.

Drug dealers have figured out how to use their old bottles with— that may have been legitimate at that one time and replace them with the illicit pills and say, oh yeah, this is the real thing because I— here it is, it's in the bottle that I got from my pharmacist.

Yeah, and, and of course the, these sites that aren't legit, they're going to probably have a picture of somebody with a white coat on it, right? You know, so they have those ways. Man, it, it is, um, something I, I remember with the opioid crisis and this just became the next best, not best, but then kind of the next phase of that. Senator Sullivan holding a town hall, I wanna say it was at the, right when the theater, the new theater at the Matsu College was open and it was packed and people were really interested in because it was crossing all sectors. And I want to talk to you too.

Are you aware of physicians who, and the dentists who are prescribing, they, we now have more parameters around that. Can you speak, were you involved in that? Because that was when, that really was how it started for most people. It wasn't usually just somebody on the street, right? Usually in the opioid too, it was starting by a legitimate prescription for pain, right?

And so, are you aware of what's happening in the medical community as far as that connection that leads people to fentanyl? So that division of the DEA is called the diversion, and they, you know, if anybody's been to the doctor for anything and experienced pain, the doctors used to give you 20, 30, 40 pills, oxy or pain medication at a time. Now they're very, very limited. Maybe you get 10 even after major surgery. Maybe you get 10.

So that has dramatically reduced in the medical world people becoming addicted to those meds. Now that's, you You know, by no way saying that people aren't doctor shopping. They, you know, they go to one doctor and get a prescription, they go to another doctor and get another prescription for another ailment. And that reduction in being able to get them legitimately really is what China saw and what fentanyl— fentanyl, that's why fentanyl's here, is because we were not able as a country to access excess oxycodone. Okay, like we were.

And they said, we can fill that void, we'll fill it with fentanyl. And that's why—. Happened. Yeah, that's why the online stuff probably popped up too, because I remember it actually in— during my time in Juneau, an effort, one of the things was requiring continuing medical education credit, um, as part of— to maintain a license for the different medical professions that had prescription authority, that they would have to include that. And then I think the limits as well.

So it's interesting, like you said, the people in the business world that are doing this, they're very smart and they figure workarounds. And that's what makes this probably a long time journey for you because, um, you know, it's like you fix one thing and then it pops up over here kind of thing. And so it's, even if you think you've figured something out, it's gonna surface somewhere else. So, and yeah, that's what happened basically. So your sense is when we started kind of putting parameters and tamping down on opioids, that's when the fentanyl crisis started picking up.

Yeah, the cartel saw an opportunity. Yeah. And they took advantage of it, and here we are now with fentanyl. So, you know, I don't want to sound pessimistic. I, I think there will always be drugs.

You know, people have, for whatever reason, wanted to change how they feel ever since man first crushed grapes, right? We started drinking wine. So I don't I don't know what that is, but we're— we can help our young people on a, you know, big broader policy socioeconomic social change that, you know, maybe there's something else you could do besides drink or use drugs to change how you feel. Bruce loved to change how he felt by being in nature. He loved to change how he felt by climbing mountains.

And if we had been able to teach him, and now hopefully moving forward, children from a very young age to find something else to do other than take a pill or drink alcohol to change the way they feel. This is a behavioral health issue in the end. Mm-hmm. And slowly but surely, I think we are turning the tide. When I talk I talk to young people now, it used to be when I was in school, the cool kids were using drugs and alcohol.

And I said, is that still how it is at your school? And they said, absolutely not. No, the cool kids are not using drugs and alcohol. And that is hope. That is hope.

That is, that is good. You know, there are a lot of things happening with young people. It's very different today than it was when we were young. And, um, we had a conversation— this which is a totally different subject, but like I said, I'm trying to learn about a lot of different things. I cannot be an expert in everything, so being able to talk to someone like you is so important.

So I was having a conversation about wildlife and game and hunting and those kind of things with people who are very, very knowledgeable, and they were talking about the need for young people to get involved. And I love to think out of the box, I said, you know, vocational education is so important to keep kids in school. The graduation rates go up. It helps students who maybe would be very bored studying Shakespeare, but they're all excited about coming to the small engine repair class, you know. And I was thinking, what if we actually allowed some of these outdoor things like hunting and fishing to be part of training to be an adult in Alaska.

And there are a couple benefits. It would, first of all, kids would enjoy it, right? But it also would keep them off of screens. And I think that that screen time is, you know, there's a lot of study and research tying that into mental health, behavioral health, and the kind of things where people, you know, they start feeling bad about themselves and they want to get relief and alter their state of mind. And so they're going after these things.

So I think activities like that that we can foster in the schools, and I think hunting and fishing, I mean, it's so Alaskan, right? And multiple benefits: exercise, better food, you know, protein, good natural protein from the fish and from the moose and the caribou. Keeping them away from the screens and giving them purpose, right? Because it has to do with purpose and having an activity. And you can't also just put something in a box because, like you, you were a good mom.

And you know, there's families, you know, we have broken families, but we have some healthy families where this is happening. So there's no one magic trick, but I think Engaging our young people in things that will excite them and that are better activities would be part of it, very much part of it. And then making sure that, you know, when there is some— if there is slippage, and that the kind of treatment be holistic and more complete and with the support they need so that they can actually, you know, have the best chance of recovery. I think a lot of these things can line up and help. And I think we need to go after what I'm calling the old drug pushers, right?

If you made the penalties for that extremely harsh, harsh, harsh, you know, people might pack up and leave the state. And I'm glad to know about the scanners. That actually is— how long have those been around? Is that kind of new, or has that been around for a while? The scanners that you don't have to open the packages are fairly new.

We had a pilot program. Okay. And there, I think there were 10 of them and now we have many more. But yeah, those are fairly new. Yeah.

That, that's promising. So, because you, like the three-legged stool analogy, you got to hit it from all these different things. So I think if we could increase the number of scanners, if we could engage the kids more in school, if the treatment is realistic. Can you think of anything else? Like, if you had a magic wand and, you know, money were not an issue, what are— what would be like the best package that you could put together that would save more lives in Alaska?

I think, I think it's got to be the kids. I, I think I've got to try. We have to try, and I try anything to get to kids. And unfortunately, it is the 8th graders. I think it's the health classes that you're talking about, those 8th grade, 8th grade health classes.

Recently in Anchorage, I've been able to get to almost every single 8th grade health class with the DEA. Wow. If I could do that every semester with the new class coming in to every 8th grade class in Alaska and spend the money to do that and bring the message to them about, particularly about finding other things to do. I believe that I was— I had nothing unsaid with my son when he passed. We were good.

I have one regret, one regret, that I didn't take him out of Anchorage, take him somewhere where he could have lived like you're talking about living. He could leave. He left Anchorage for days at a time with no food. He knew how to feed himself in the woods. He knew how to live in the woods.

He was safe in the woods. He was not safe in Anchorage. I have one regret is that I didn't take him somewhere off the grid until his brain developed to be able to resist the temptation limitations of this modern world that we live in. He loved it there, and I, I wish I would have taken him. Yeah, you can't turn back the clock, but you're definitely making up for it with all you're doing.

So you're hitting the schools in Anchorage. What about in other parts of the state? And is your nonprofit— are you fundraising to support your work? Is that what that is about? Maybe Tell us about that nonprofit and if Alaskans wanted to get involved, how they could help.

So I, you know, I am a 501, so I accept donations on my AK Fentanyl Response website. And anybody that'll invite me to their school or to their Rotary Club or to their conference, it's, it is, it's the thing that I feel best doing. Now I do kind of call it the 30,000-foot stuff, you know, the Juneau stuff and the DC stuff, but my heart is with the kids. Yeah, reaching kids. So if, if a teacher listens to this and wants to have you come speak, they'd go on the website and there'd be a way for them to reach out to you?

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that, that's wonderful. Have you been out to villages yet, or has it primarily been Anchorage? I have, and I, um, I, I talked about Togiak. I don't know why Togiak has a special place in my heart because it scared me to death when I found out that 3,000 pills almost got out there.

And I have been able to go to Togiak. I have been able to go to places like Chevak and some of the smaller communities, and it's, it's more difficult, you know, for me to get out there. I, um need to gain an elder's trust and be invited, because, you know, I would never go without being invited. And once they kind of get to know me a little bit, which takes time, which is fine, I understand that. I don't work for anyone, I'm not selling anything, I'm not trying to tell anybody what to do.

I'm a bereaved mother that's lost her child, that's all. Do you know Bill Pagan by any chance? I don't know the name. So he has, he's Tlingit, he lives in the area here and he travels out to villages and schools on the topic of suicide and he would be a really good partnership with you. So when you've gone to Chevak and other places, has the donations to your nonprofit been enough to cover that or are you paying out of your pocket?

So, Some— I have had some grant money, but I also have money that all of us saved for our children. Mm-hmm. He was my— Bruce was my only child. Mm-hmm. So I don't need that money anymore.

Yeah. So I use that money too. Well, that's— wow, that's a lot. And that's part of how you carry out his legacy, right? I can't think of a better advocate than a mom.

I just can't. I'm sure there are dads out there that are good advocates too, but a parent who's experienced it, the passion that you bring and the commitment to trying to help kids, I mean, it's really apparent. And even though you were talking about those 30,000-foot things like DC and Juneau, your heart is really communicating with 8th graders. Right? And so I am— I'm just thrilled to get to know you and hear your story.

And I know Alaskans, this is really a hard subject, but it's an important one. And what we can do, so like, for instance, the pilot project at Set Free, how important that is. That's going to reduce crime in our neighborhoods. It's going to help young people, those kind of things. The getting the teachers and principals and districts aware of your work and getting you into the schools, very important.

Senator Rauscher's bill to that, that this become part of the health curriculum, it's common sense and it's not going to cost the schools additional money. They're paying salaries to their district staff and to the teachers and you know, a— probably in your estimation, if an 8th grade class were going to fold this into the health curriculum, is it a 2-hour conversation? I mean, how much time are we talking about the curriculum to cover this in an 8th grade health classroom? So the presentation that I and the DEA do now is one class. We go in and I I have a 13-minute documentary that was made, um, in Anchorage.

A lot of law enforcement on that. And then the DEA does their One Pill Can Kill campaign. We do it in one class. So it's like an hour-long class. Yeah.

And they have— we go one in fall semester and then the new class in the spring semester. Oh, okay. We'd like to do it every year, every school, everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, and like I said, the districts, they, they talk about, you know, mandatory unfunded mandates is the phrase they use.

When something has to do with life and death, um, you know, it, it's kind of important. Yeah, kind of important. The school district hasn't paid AK Fentanyl Response a dime. Okay. Nor the DEA a dime.

And we want to go. Yeah, we will go. Now we are, but if, if Senator Rauscher's bill were to pass, would you physically— would you be able to do every 8th grade class in the whole state, or are you envisioning this a curriculum package that the health education teacher would present? So there are family groups in the lower 48 that are working together and they believe what I believe, and they believe that a bereaved parent is the key. Okay.

So we have horrible, horrible to say, millions of bereaved parents in this country, millions over the last 5 years that fentanyl has created. And we want to go to those 8th grade health classes. In Alaska— excuse me— is there another— do you know of some other parents that would be willing to help you, and have any also gone into classrooms at this point? Yes. Okay.

Can you tell us, like, how many you've networked that would be willing to help with that? Yeah, so I've got at least 7 or 8 bereaved parents, mothers and fathers, in Alaska that have done presentations with me. That's awesome. Thank you for your leadership. And to those parents, thank you.

I know that is, it's hard to do, but it, like you said, it's therapeutic too. But the bottom line is it's helping the kids. It's helping the kids. Yeah. Have you heard stories from students about when they've been approached?

Have you heard that even like at the 8th grade level or high school? Where students were— there was a close call where, you know, they were offered something? So we— when I started, I would ask the children to raise their hands. Have you ever heard the word fentanyl? And in the beginning, maybe 20% of the hands would go up.

Mm-hmm. And have you Have you ever known anybody that has been affected by fentanyl? Hands would— maybe 5% would stay up. Do you know anybody that's passed away from an illicit drug or fentanyl poisoning? Maybe 1 or 2.

Those numbers have changed so dramatically. A lot more hands going up. Yeah, 90% of the hands go up, I know what fentanyl is. 50% Of the hands stay up, I know someone that's been affected. And 10%, easily 10%, have lost someone to fentanyl.

Wow. Know somebody. Wow. In the school systems now. So those children, that 10% that have lost someone, we ask that, you know, their peers keep an eye on them, their teachers keep an eye on them, their school counselors keep an eye on them.

And we reach out to those young ones because because, you know, they're living it, and we don't want to upset them with the presentations, but they can— these young people that now know this, they are the leaders. They're the people that their peers are going to listen to. They may or may not listen to us, but if they have a classmate says, hey, my uncle died, that's going to make a difference. So really, we need the kids. We need the kids in the end to lead for us once we leave.

And so I try to do that. I try to empower those young people that have lost someone in their life or have been affected somehow in their life to carry the message, to break stigma, and to help keep their friends and their friends' families alive. Yeah, and I'm guessing it's more profound and more impactful now the more students that are aware of it, and you're— it's probably really effective, and it is the time to get you and the other bereaved parents in doing that, and I hope we can do it. So just as we wrap up, I want to again say the name of your nonprofit website in case in case people want to contribute and help you get around to the state. What's the name of the team?

It's akfentanylresponse.com. Dot com. Okay, very good. And then we don't know Senator Ravicher's new bill number. We may know here very shortly.

And then Representative Nelson, who is the new representative for that House district, is going to carry the House companion. So what we will try to do, will is to provide those bill numbers to Alaskans who've listened to this and in the comment section when, when we let people know about this opportunity to learn about the fentanyl crisis so that people can weigh in to the education committees and say, please hear these bills. These are important. Do not add a fiscal note will be my recommendation. In order to get them across the finish line.

So I want to thank you for sharing your story today. Is there any final thought or closing thing you'd like me to know, or the listeners to know? I, you know, I love Alaska, and I think we— once we find something out in Alaska— you were saying that the government is not necessarily— is— cannot be responsible for that, and we know that here. We We just need to know what to do. And you having this podcast and getting into the schools, getting to parents with this information, we will figure this out.

This is— it's what we do. We will, we will, especially when there's an advocate like you who is so passionate about it. I'm confident. Please let me know if there is anything I can do moving forward, or if there's information I can dispense to people that would be helpful. I, I love to communicate with people.

I, I have kind of a philosophy that the only way, way that a constitutional republic works well is if it's a two-way street where I hear from people and I provide information. So communication is, is ultra important to me. So I'm happy to get information out from people. And if people want to contact me, I may have someone say, you know, my daughter died, I'd like to get in touch with Sandy. You know, people can reach me, I'll get them in touch with you.

But to be— I'm happy to be a conduit to help in any way that I can. And if Alaskans choose me to be their next governor, I want you to be very engaged with me and let me know, you know, are we missing it somewhere where are we dropping the ball, or you have a new idea, um, whatever, my door will be open. You know, life is, is so precious, and we don't want to lose any more of our young people or any more of our seniors either. So we want to support law enforcement in this. I would be very interested in extending the statute of limitations.

I think that's important. We got to go after those drug pushers. Yeah. So with that, Sandy, thank you, thank you so much. I can't hug you from here because of the microphones and everything, but when we go off the air, I'm going to give you a big hug.

Thank you so much. And I'm sure listeners, you've really enjoyed this. And stay tuned, we are going to be bringing you more episodes of Have Your Say with Hughes. Thank you for joining us today.